Alonso Duralde (Hollywood Pride - 2024)

[00:00:05] Hi, I'm Alonzo and today I'm the guest and I'm Dan and I despise Hallmark movies

[00:00:10] But we're really gonna talk about that today. And this is the deck the hallmark podcast

[00:00:29] Oh

[00:00:33] Boy, oh boy. What a day it is. Welcome to deck the hallmark or mystery Friday interview is none other

[00:00:40] Then the we made his deal the Alonzo Duraldi Alonzo. How's it going, buddy? Yes. Thank you for meeting my very strict writer

[00:00:48] I really appreciate of course. Yeah, we do the best we can

[00:00:52] Brand number one being no brand. Yeah

[00:00:55] Yeah, that is part of it. That's better than what I was gonna say, which is normally when he's out

[00:00:59] I say he hates the thing we're talking about so

[00:01:01] Brand hates gay people and you heard it here first

[00:01:05] This is this is breaking news brand we couldn't make his deal to interview

[00:01:13] Alonzo no a brain is sick. He's got strep throat and so wish him well by the time this comes out

[00:01:18] We'll hope that he's on the men

[00:01:20] But you know Alonzo you and I have been talking about movies and I use that term loosely

[00:01:26] Over the course of the last six ish years together and so it's not every day

[00:01:32] It does happen, you know, I would say what three times over the last decade and a half

[00:01:35] But it's not every day that one writes a book about movies

[00:01:40] And this is and you you've done such a thing and it comes out from the day people are listening to this

[00:01:45] if you're listening to it on May 3rd, it comes out in 11 days May 14th and

[00:01:49] I have a copy of this book and it is

[00:01:54] Fantastic. It's Hollywood pride

[00:01:56] I want to make sure I get the subtitle right a celebration of LGBTQ plus representation and

[00:02:01] Perseverance in film Alonzo, how proud are you?

[00:02:05] I'm

[00:02:06] You know, I can't I'm pinching myself

[00:02:08] I can't believe it's finally happening like, you know when you as you know for the process of when we did the book together

[00:02:14] Like they existed as a theoretical for so long and it's just like a bunch of PDFs going back and forth and you're making

[00:02:21] Notations and marks and then one day that box arrives and you have it in your hand and it's like oh

[00:02:26] Oh, so this is it's really happening now. We there's no turning back

[00:02:29] Yeah, if you're like me and this will be the end of the promo for the book until the end of the program

[00:02:33] But if you're like me and you're already excited about hearing the soothing sounds of Alonzo De Raldi read you the book on audible

[00:02:39] Great, you should get that copy but get this copy too because we got a copy from the publisher

[00:02:45] It came earlier this week and it is it's just it's gorgeous

[00:02:50] it looks great a great coffee table book and I'm excited to dive in and talk about that, but

[00:02:55] You I don't know if you did this to get on the show

[00:02:58] But you you sent me and brand a very nice text about how good of an interviewers we we are

[00:03:05] And I realized in retrospect that looked conniving, but I actually meant it

[00:03:09] So you did I was listening to you guys talking to one of the when calls the heart so I was like

[00:03:15] And and you're like Daniel you're a good interviewer brand not so much is there any way we could just get

[00:03:21] And

[00:03:23] I was like, thank you so much. I really appreciate that and then later in that conversation

[00:03:27] We have an ongoing text read you were like, hey you guys ever want to interview me?

[00:03:30] I'm like, of course we'd want to interview you and so here we are you're gonna get the full DTH treatment

[00:03:36] The only downside is is I don't have an ID IMDB

[00:03:39] list of like

[00:03:41] Why were you in the fifth airbud sequel?

[00:03:43] But you did like Jupiter ascending so I feel like there's gonna be plenty of embarrassment to go around

[00:03:51] Alonzo tell everyone I know some of this and this is kind of the difficulty for me with this is that other people

[00:03:57] Don't tell everyone where you're from where you grew up how you found your love of film

[00:04:04] Sure, I grew up in East Point, Georgia, which is suburban Atlanta basically and

[00:04:10] My parents were both Spanish immigrants

[00:04:13] I'm the youngest of seven children and my mom really loved movies and we would watch them on TV all the time

[00:04:19] and every so often

[00:04:21] You know when I was growing up in Atlanta

[00:04:23] There was a repertory theater on the other side of town

[00:04:26] And so every so often it would be this rare treat that we would like pile in the car and go see like Rebecca

[00:04:30] Or you know some old Hitchcock movie or Wuthering Heights or something when I was 11, I

[00:04:37] Begged my mom to drive me there so that I could finally see Citizen Kane

[00:04:41] Cuz I've never I well, you know, I kept reading about it and they hearing about it

[00:04:46] I'd never seen it never seen to come on television and mind you this is

[00:04:50] 1978 so the VCR is not a thing in the home yet for us anyway

[00:04:55] So yeah, so she was she was very

[00:04:59] Understanding of like my own sort of nascent obsession with this stuff and my oldest brother

[00:05:06] Went to Harvard in the early 1970s and there was a big sort of

[00:05:11] Revival of classic Hollywood happening at that time like that's sort of where the Marx Brothers revival was born in Casablanca

[00:05:18] And a lot of that stuff it sort of started with like Harvard students

[00:05:21] So he came home with all of these amazing books about you know, Hollywood of the 30s and 40s that I was just

[00:05:26] Eating up as a child

[00:05:28] So yeah, I was a total weirdo and nerd but you know

[00:05:31] I had you know

[00:05:33] They always say like you're going to a career if it's gonna be something like if you want to be an actor

[00:05:37] You want to be a singer like one of those things where it's

[00:05:40] Really hard and you've got to really stick with it like don't have a plan B

[00:05:44] And so I didn't have a plan B like this has always been my thing. So, you know, sometimes I'm a film critic

[00:05:51] Sometimes I'm working at film festivals, but it's always

[00:05:54] Swimming by sometimes sometimes all the time

[00:05:56] Yes, sometimes I'm podcasting about Hallmark Christmas movies because who knew the big time as we call it

[00:06:01] I do have a few follow-ups one what age?

[00:06:05] Alonzo, DeRalde are we talking about that's devouring Hollywood history books

[00:06:10] Just for my own edification

[00:06:14] Nine ten years old

[00:06:18] That's impressive, you know, I was circling the TV guide when stuff was gonna come on

[00:06:24] Did you guys have cable do we cable or just not not until like I was a junior in high school

[00:06:30] So, I mean again like we're you know, the we're years away from that

[00:06:34] So I'm literally just like looking for on the afternoon movie is you know notorious or you know destroy all monsters gonna come on

[00:06:44] What was the 11 year old Alonzo DeRalde review of Citizen Kane like did you get spoiler alert that rose the rosebud

[00:06:53] Did you get I guess I won't say it. I was

[00:06:57] Lunged like I was giving away

[00:06:59] National secrets this movie is only 80 years old

[00:07:04] People it's the freakin sled like we did you at 11? Were you were you there? Were you processing at that level?

[00:07:10] Here's the thing. I knew that the rosebud was this led because there's a peanut strip where they give that away

[00:07:15] Where line Linus is watching Citizen Kane on TV and Lucy Lucy goes Rosebud was his sled. He's like

[00:07:23] So I went in knowing that I mean obviously I didn't get it in the way that I have come to in subsequent years

[00:07:29] I was like, oh yes

[00:07:30] I can see the influence of German expressionism and you know

[00:07:32] But I just knew that I was seeing something really special

[00:07:35] And the thing I always say about Citizen Kane when people feel like it's too daunting

[00:07:40] I'm like it's one of the handful of classics. That's a fun watch. Yeah, like it's yeah

[00:07:44] It's funny and it zips along and so like whether or not you're sort of processing it is

[00:07:49] Oh the greatest American film ever made like it's just a fun watch in my very

[00:07:53] Like minimal experience teaching a little bit of film to some high school students

[00:07:59] I would when they would talk about Citizen Kane whenever they would say

[00:08:02] I just feel like this has been done a lot better in other movies

[00:08:06] I would always say that is you professing your love for Citizen Kane

[00:08:11] What he's doing there and that was my when I didn't see it till college and when I saw it

[00:08:16] I remember just going oh, this was this was like gripping and entertaining

[00:08:20] But you know and then my then I had a professor who was like no, no, no, it's way more than that

[00:08:24] Here's why and it took me a lot but at 11 I would have it would have been lost on me

[00:08:28] I would I don't think I've been there with you at 11 and I like to think I like movies

[00:08:33] You know look I get I I

[00:08:35] I spent a lot of my life sort of teaching myself this stuff because this was before the internet. This is before cable

[00:08:43] And so it was literally just like you know, I liken it to

[00:08:48] You ever seen searching for Bobby Fischer's yeah great movie

[00:08:52] So the kid sees like one game of chess being played in the park and like immediately comes home and recreates a chessboard with his toys

[00:08:59] Like I was from a very young age

[00:09:02] Like I could tell you what we're showing at any movie theater in a five mile radius of our house

[00:09:07] When I was about four years old, I wasn't even going to movies yet

[00:09:10] But I was just just the idea of it. I found so thrilling

[00:09:13] So it's just been this weird obsession my entire life and thankfully I found an outlet

[00:09:18] Yeah, I that like I was completely with you until you said for I was when I was like 10 11 12

[00:09:25] I would get the newspaper. I went to the movie theaters. Maybe a half dozen times before I was in middle school

[00:09:30] We just didn't have a lot of money

[00:09:31] But I would get the newspapers and I knew every movie theater in town

[00:09:34] I knew where everything was playing and then you said four and I was like no I

[00:09:39] It also and I don't want to give your parents too much credit here but

[00:09:44] At this. Oh, that's the fact that you're the seventh kid and your parents

[00:09:50] Yeah, are just still care. I like you know, this is the youngest of seven Alonzo and that your mom

[00:09:56] Yeah dragging you across Atlanta. I don't know if I drag my kids across Atlanta. That's a well see

[00:10:03] It's kind of it's kind of the opposite my siblings will tell you that like they got the tough disciplinarian

[00:10:08] Like unfun version of my parents and by the time I showed up they were like, yeah, whatever

[00:10:13] You know, they were just too tired to like to bother with you know things so yeah

[00:10:19] Believe me all of my siblings will tell you like how good I

[00:10:24] The family with stories of Alonzo getting whatever he wanted

[00:10:28] What any of your other siblings share even like a kindling an inkling of your love for film?

[00:10:35] Well, like I said my oldest brother the one yeah the one who came home with all those books like he's you know

[00:10:41] He's he has other things in his life. He's you know a retired doctor

[00:10:44] He's really incredible needle pointer actually like you know all the showtimes in Atlanta at four

[00:10:52] He did not

[00:10:53] But you know, he definitely like, you know

[00:10:56] We would we could talk about Greta Garbo or you know, like MGM musicals or ever and he would do you know?

[00:11:02] He knew what was going on fantastic so we leave the the friendly confines of Atlanta and where do we go next?

[00:11:09] So I went to college

[00:11:11] In Nashville I went to Vanderbilt a little school and got you little school called Vanderbilt. Yes

[00:11:16] Just not an academic institution. They're gonna lose their university title any day

[00:11:21] Diplomah mill

[00:11:23] So they didn't they have one now

[00:11:25] But they didn't have a film school at the time that I went there and they didn't have a journalism school

[00:11:30] And my goal was you know to become a so why did you use the University of Phoenix at Vanderbilt?

[00:11:37] Because I

[00:11:39] kind of overshot myself for like

[00:11:42] Colleges I applied for like a lot of really, you know your harvard's in your north west

[00:11:47] But I gotta stop you. I know I've been interrupted you a lot. I'm really sorry

[00:11:51] Built your safe school was Vanderbilt your say just say it out loud

[00:11:56] Okay, no my safe school was University of Georgia which was a lot easier to get back into nowadays

[00:12:01] Just not getting over it. I'm sorry, Georgia

[00:12:03] But I don't know if it was my semi safety school because my older sister was there at the time

[00:12:09] Okay, I was like I had that in going on

[00:12:13] But yeah, it was sort of it was low on the list of where I wanted to go

[00:12:16] But I was where I was where I went then it wound up being great because a couple things first of all

[00:12:20] They let me make up a major so I basically cobbled together as much sort of like

[00:12:27] You know film and theater and writing classes as I could

[00:12:32] But then also it turns out that colleges that don't have journalism schools tend to have really good student newspapers

[00:12:39] Because everybody who's writing for that paper wants to be there and isn't doing it as a requirement as like coursework or whatever

[00:12:46] So we had a really great paper

[00:12:48] Unfortunately, it was named the hustler

[00:12:51] And as we said in our t-shirts, we had the name first the data back to like the early 1900s

[00:12:57] You wrote for hustler is what you're saying

[00:13:02] Yeah, so so, you know I got it was a great place to like really just pump out reviews and learn

[00:13:08] You know the craft that way also there was a campus radio station where I was DJing

[00:13:13] So that was good for sort of that certainly prepared me a lot for talking into a microphone now

[00:13:18] And then also because we didn't have cable on campus yet. There was a thriving on-campus student run cinema

[00:13:26] okay, and I got into that committee like as my freshman year and

[00:13:31] Was pretty much running it the last few years I was there and that taught me how to book movies

[00:13:36] So like weirdly that people I have booked films from when I was in college

[00:13:40] I still deal with in the world of indie cinema today like they're still out there

[00:13:44] It's amazing and also it taught me how to write blurbs for movies

[00:13:49] To make them see, you know

[00:13:51] Like to get people to want to come see them

[00:13:53] Which was a very useful skill when I went into the film festivals and you have to write those little short

[00:13:58] Capsule descriptions to like entice people you've never heard of this movie, but who you want to see it and here's why so

[00:14:04] My coursework was kind of the least of it. But everything else that was happening on campus

[00:14:08] I really learned a lot from I got to direct a play at one point

[00:14:12] Which really taught me a lot about being on the other side of it and the decisions that get made

[00:14:16] What was the play called? I did it was David Mamet's sexual perversity in Chicago

[00:14:22] Which was turned into the movie about last night

[00:14:25] David Mamet dialogue easy to direct really easy

[00:14:29] college students

[00:14:30] Yeah

[00:14:31] Well, I think you know

[00:14:32] If you there should be a rule where if you haven't actually had sex yet

[00:14:36] You probably shouldn't be able to direct a play called sexual perversity in Chicago, but no one told me that so I plowed ahead

[00:14:51] Yeah, so Vanderbilt was great for

[00:14:53] Reasons having very little to do with my actual academic work

[00:14:56] But but the extracurriculars were great and it all they all provided me with skills that I used to this day

[00:15:02] I've not done this when I interview most people because we're talking all about movies

[00:15:05] I'm at every point in your life and I just thought of this is a bad idea

[00:15:09] You let me know

[00:15:10] I'm gonna ask you if there's a movie that you remember from that like do you remember a movie that sticks out to you?

[00:15:16] while you were at Vanderbilt that you're like I saw this in the theater and it was like what everyone was buzzing about or

[00:15:21] It really had an impact on your life or something like that

[00:15:25] Hmm. God, I I was devouring so I mean because you know, I the last couple years I was there

[00:15:32] I finally had roommates with a VCR and we had a little change, you know

[00:15:37] Little convenience store on campus where you could rent movies

[00:15:39] Then there was a really cool weird video store that was near campus

[00:15:42] And then I was you know programming stuff of the cinema and then also like taking film classes

[00:15:47] So it's you know, actually what I saw while living in Nashville for the first time was Nashville. Oh wow, Robert Altman

[00:15:55] Yeah

[00:15:56] A movie that the city when I was there in the 80s the city still had very mixed feelings

[00:16:03] That they still do I mean, I don't know probably yeah, I'm not surprised

[00:16:07] I think like a lot like I know that when it premiered a lot of country music people were like

[00:16:11] What is this and why are you insulting us this way?

[00:16:15] And its legacy remains complicated. Although I did have one professor who still had a

[00:16:21] Bumper sticker on his van for the fake presidential candidate from that movie

[00:16:26] Like I guess it appears in the film somewhere. So though that was kind of cool

[00:16:30] But yeah that movie really I had seen Rules of the Game before

[00:16:36] when I taken a

[00:16:38] college-level film class while I was in high school, but

[00:16:41] But seeing Nashville really kind of this notion like oh my god

[00:16:45] There's all these stories and they all come together and and he's commenting about

[00:16:49] popular culture and about politics and the intersection and then

[00:16:52] You know, it was it was very awesome

[00:16:53] And so you you you devour so many movies there and really for the rest of your life

[00:16:58] But you leave Vanderbilt and at what point did you realize my dream and you've said this to me?

[00:17:04] I don't know. I've known you for six years

[00:17:06] I consider you a dear friend you've said my vocation is my avocation or vice versa

[00:17:11] I say that where I do I basically get to do what I have loved since I was a child

[00:17:15] Which is so awesome and I get to do that as well and I highly recommend it

[00:17:19] You when did you realize it's gonna happen like what like is there a job or are we not there yet?

[00:17:26] Um

[00:17:27] We're probably not there yet. I mean like my first major job out of like, you know

[00:17:34] Immediately after graduating I stayed in van I stayed in Nashville for a while

[00:17:37] I worked at the the very first tower records in Nashville open to that summer and I worked in their video department

[00:17:44] Which was great because like I became

[00:17:47] The guy in the video rental thing where people would look for me and ask for me because I could tell them

[00:17:53] What's the name of that movie with the and I could if I didn't know offhand I could look it up and should have

[00:17:57] Had an Alonzo's picks section

[00:18:00] Alas, they did not offer me one

[00:18:03] But yeah

[00:18:03] So so, you know

[00:18:04] I was kind of knocking around doing that my first big job out of college was for the Dallas Times Herald a daily

[00:18:09] Paper that no longer exists

[00:18:11] But they hired me to be their pop music guy for reasons

[00:18:14] I still don't understand and it was a bad fit and I wasn't

[00:18:18] That wasn't my area of expertise and it lasted about six months and it was you know, whatever

[00:18:22] but then I

[00:18:24] Started working for the film festival there the USA Film Festival and you know

[00:18:29] It was various people's assistance at different times and helping out with programming and you know doing you know

[00:18:35] Q&A is with guests and you know all the logistical stuff

[00:18:38] And then I moved out to Los Angeles for the first time for a couple of years

[00:18:43] Where I was doing some more writing and other things

[00:18:45] But then in 95 I got the opportunity to come back to Dallas and be the program director for USA

[00:18:51] And so that I think to me felt like the first real sort of like full-time established

[00:18:56] I'm really doing it job and I was there for about five years

[00:18:59] It's almost similar to the trajectory of an actor wanting to like break it into showbiz

[00:19:04] It's like they have these jobs that good like they gleaned

[00:19:08] Experience or they got this one thing that they knew how to do

[00:19:12] Until they finally get what they wanted to do. I you know that that is that's fascinating

[00:19:27] Atlanta and I've never asked you this before but Atlanta Nashville Dallas

[00:19:32] Because your whole life has been spent in the south

[00:19:35] Yeah, were there was there any culture shock moving from one of those cities because those are three of the biggest cities in the south

[00:19:43] I like sure I'm trying to think of a bigger city in the south and Dallas Nashville or Atlanta

[00:19:49] I think those might be the three biggest

[00:19:51] Were was there any culture shock or was it pretty much Texas is a little different than Tennessee

[00:19:57] Which is a little different than Georgia barbecues better in Texas fried chicken

[00:20:01] Or was it a culture shock?

[00:20:03] No, they were pretty much kind of all versions of each other

[00:20:06] I mean like I remember when I moved to Texas in 1989. I had never seen such large American flags in my life

[00:20:14] That was a me like oh, what are we doing here?

[00:20:17] You know, oh and it's next to oh that's a church I thought it was a car dealership, okay

[00:20:28] But yeah

[00:20:28] you know

[00:20:29] I think growing up in Atlanta kind of you you get the feel of what the south is and what it has to offer and

[00:20:34] The humidity and you know, whatever else and so so yeah Nashville and Dallas were variations on that theme

[00:20:39] But nothing too shocked did any of those feel more like like as an adult more like home

[00:20:44] Like I could live here forever or did you not feel that till you got to California?

[00:20:49] Huh interesting, um, yeah, I you know, I mean I think you know, I haven't lived in Atlanta since you know

[00:20:57] I mean I lived there for the summer in

[00:21:01] 1987 when I was interning at the paper there

[00:21:04] but I haven't I haven't like lived there since and so I

[00:21:07] think of that as a place that I could perhaps wind up because of

[00:21:12] My six siblings five of them live in the greater Atlanta area so, you know it that certainly could work

[00:21:20] Nashville I haven't spent a lot of time in since graduating from college. Although I'm going this summer in July

[00:21:27] I'm gonna be doing a screening at the Bell Court, which I'm very excited about

[00:21:30] and it seems

[00:21:32] Like a really like everyone I was there it felt like oh, this is like Atlanta about ten years earlier

[00:21:38] Yeah, not in a bad way but just in terms of like the sprawl, you know

[00:21:42] And the Atlanta I left is not nearly the size of the Atlanta people think of it now

[00:21:47] You know when I was there like Alpharetta felt like another planet and now it's just like oh no

[00:21:52] It's straight up the 400 and you're right there, you know

[00:21:55] Yeah, and then Dallas like a lot of people that I love there but

[00:22:01] I mean the American flag

[00:22:03] They're massive

[00:22:06] Given the current state of politics, I don't think I could live in Texas or Tennessee right now or anytime in the near future

[00:22:11] Yeah more than more than fair and a festival question then we'll get back on track

[00:22:16] Do you have a and if you don't want to share this that is you're gonna not share it

[00:22:21] I already know in my head. I'm not gonna share it. I've done a few Q&A's

[00:22:25] I'd like to do this what we're doing right now like, you know, it is I love to interview people. It's it's fun

[00:22:33] But Q&A is really do just like interviews rise and fall on the guest and their ability to

[00:22:40] Articulate and be game and ready to play and if not it gets tough in a hurry. Do you?

[00:22:47] Was there a moment you were on stage doing the Q&A and you just went well F this I am just I

[00:22:54] Am up here and I have just been put in the middle of the ocean without a life raft

[00:23:00] I oh I had a several yeah

[00:23:02] The ones that leap to mind one that was funny and one that was infuriating the funny one was Christopher

[00:23:15] This story, oh, I don't know how this is a good one so he's you know, he's Christopher Walken

[00:23:21] It's like all of his answers winded being kind of short and not just like

[00:23:26] Monosyllabic and I'm like trying to find some because the things like sometimes as I'm sure you know

[00:23:31] This was interview somebody to just sort of like keep keep you know hitting targets and then hope for the one that's gonna open

[00:23:37] The door, you know, like like like one time with Dennis Hopper

[00:23:40] Didn't couldn't really get him talking about movies or art

[00:23:42] But then I brought up water world which was had not opened yet

[00:23:46] And he went off on this how much he loved Hawaii and how good the golf was there and I'm like, alright

[00:23:50] Well at least we're talking about so kidding

[00:23:52] But walk in I just I couldn't find that I couldn't find it

[00:23:55] So I start taking questions from the audience and somebody goes what was it like working with De Niro on the deer hunter?

[00:24:02] And his answer was

[00:24:05] fine

[00:24:08] That movie doesn't delve in anything deep it's a real

[00:24:13] What is there to say really, you know, it was fine whatever I

[00:24:17] Will say this about walking

[00:24:20] People had they didn't show up to see him wax poetic, right?

[00:24:23] They have to know if you're watching a Christopher walk in anything

[00:24:28] Him saying more than ten words at a time would come as a surprise, right?

[00:24:33] Yeah, exactly. This is the guy who takes the punctuation out of his script. So he just you know, he's on his own

[00:24:39] McCarthy of actors

[00:24:42] The advice with the infuriating one though was I

[00:24:45] Still respect him as an actor and I it drives me crazy that I do because this was the worst experience

[00:24:50] One of the worst experiences of my life was doing a Q&A with Tommy Lee Jones

[00:24:55] And he asked any ask any interviewer ask any journalists who's ever had to interview him and they will tell you a similar

[00:25:02] Story, he just is not here to play and here's the thing

[00:25:06] We were honoring him at the film festival like we we were giving him an award

[00:25:11] He agreed to come it wasn't like he was stuck in a press junket and in a bad mood

[00:25:16] He came by choice and he was still a complete D to me. Yeah. Yeah

[00:25:21] He strikes me as someone who is just the publicity tour is his worst nightmare

[00:25:27] Like he would he would do ten movies a year if you never had to talk to anybody and

[00:25:32] I hear an interview with him

[00:25:33] I'm like, oh my gosh

[00:25:34] And then I see him in like Lincoln and Stadia Stevens and I'm like this guy is just

[00:25:39] That's the thing I seem like damn it I wish you weren't so good

[00:25:44] My favorite part of that though was he turned his back on me literally during the Q&A just started taking questions himself from the audience

[00:25:50] And the first person he picked was a kid who asked him what his worst movie was. Oh, man

[00:25:56] You just don't know I've been a kid at a festival asking an embarrassing question before

[00:26:01] But that's tough there. That's tough sled. Yeah, Kathy Lesodi in the chat brimblejimplus.com

[00:26:07] Kathy always has very hot takes and I have to I caught this out of the corner of my eye

[00:26:11] And I just can't believe it. She says that blast from the past is walk ins best movie

[00:26:19] May I suggest you see more

[00:26:23] Any of them

[00:26:26] No, I love it's great as per usual hot take from Kathy

[00:26:30] I don't normally ask this because I don't know a lot about people's family lives or them personally

[00:26:36] But I'm gonna ask you when did you meet Dave?

[00:26:40] When I moved back to Dallas actually

[00:26:43] although

[00:26:44] Technically the first time we met was before I moved to Los Angeles. It was 1992

[00:26:52] He's told a few times I love this I've told it a few times so

[00:26:57] George Bush was coming to town for some sort of like big

[00:27:01] Baptist, you know Lollapaloo

[00:27:06] Oh, I'm getting there I'm getting there Dave I'm telling the story and Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson. Yeah, so

[00:27:14] Holy Trinity

[00:27:16] exactly. Yeah, so the gays of Dallas showed up to protest and

[00:27:20] I had been protesting for a while with with act up and

[00:27:25] a

[00:27:27] Woman that I worked with at the film festival at the time had gone to college with Dave and she brought him to

[00:27:33] What amounted to I guess his first big like gay political action and she introduced us we said hi

[00:27:40] Hello, nice to meet you. And then like that was it

[00:27:43] And then and then years later

[00:27:46] We crossed paths again and he remembered me because

[00:27:50] When I had lived in Dallas before I was a co-host of a of an LGBTQ

[00:27:55] Community radio show and so when he met me he knew my name and knew who I was from that thing

[00:28:00] So when we met again, he was like, oh right you and and it went from there. I love it. That's fantastic

[00:28:06] Of course and the rest is the rest is history

[00:28:09] Obviously we you move back to Dallas and then you stay there you get an actual film critics job

[00:28:16] Film festival festival. I'm sorry film festival job. Excuse me. And then what brings brings you back to California?

[00:28:22] I kind of knew

[00:28:24] That I wanted to come back like the whole time like as much as I was thrilled to get the job and

[00:28:29] Was was excited to come back to Dallas and do the gig for a while

[00:28:32] I had lived in LA long enough to know like this is really what's happening. This is really what works for me

[00:28:38] So it was always sort of on the agenda that at some point I was gonna come back

[00:28:42] And so I did five festivals, which I thought was a good

[00:28:45] You know a nice round number and then you know coerced Dave into moving back here with me

[00:28:51] Which at first he did not particularly want to do

[00:28:54] But has since obviously come to love it I would hope so you guys been there a while if he's still

[00:29:02] Before we get to California because I've got plenty of questions obviously, what's the hardest part for you in running a film festival?

[00:29:08] What's the toughest the thing you're like? I got to do this like for me. It's

[00:29:13] Sure, I mean I'll tell you thank goodness

[00:29:15] I did not have to fundraise like that was somebody else's job and thank goodness cuz I'm I would be so bad at that

[00:29:22] But just from my little corner of it, you know the tricky part is

[00:29:28] You know

[00:29:29] You want first you go from thinking? Oh god. I'm not kind of enough movies

[00:29:33] I'm not gonna see enough. I like you're like trying to fill these slots and then you start putting things on the board

[00:29:38] You're like, oh god, I have too many movies for my thought

[00:29:41] So I was I could never quite gauge going in like okay stop now and you'll have just the right number

[00:29:48] Which is kind of how I write, you know, like if I have a word count I'll just go bananas then I feel like chop chop chop

[00:29:54] Yeah, that's tough. That's a tough spot to be in the selection has to be the hardest thing in my head that would that would happen

[00:29:59] There. All right. Let's get to California your what are you doing out there first when you're when you're first out there in the early 90s

[00:30:05] My first job was working for film independent which at the time was called IFP West

[00:30:11] Which is they put on the Spirit Awards every year and they are an organization that works with indie filmmakers

[00:30:17] They do like, you know labs for producers and directors and screenwriters

[00:30:22] They do kind of seminars and different educational programs through the year and screenings and that kind of thing

[00:30:27] So I worked for them for a while

[00:30:29] and then

[00:30:32] After about a year. I got a job at the Advocate the the National at the time

[00:30:37] It's called the National Gay and Lesbian News Magazine. They're probably the LGBTQ plus news magazine now and I was an editor there from

[00:30:45] 2000 to 2006

[00:30:48] which was you know, it was an interesting period to be at a queer publication because

[00:30:54] like the number of out celebrities was

[00:30:58] Small enough that they could we could put them all on a bulletin board basically

[00:31:03] We still had we thought a section of my internet a section called the glass closet

[00:31:08] For people like Sean Hayes Jodie Foster Anderson Cooper who hadn't come out yet

[00:31:13] But we were like waiting that was gonna happen at some point

[00:31:15] I don't think any of them did during my tenure there, but we got there eventually. I mean I grew like my only recollection of

[00:31:22] Not Anderson Cooper. The other two is they were out like that

[00:31:25] I don't have a recollection of them before then because of my age so that's wild

[00:31:30] So you talk about the advocate in the book and some of the history of it and some of the other early

[00:31:34] organizations for LGBTQ plus representation

[00:31:37] You do that job as editor and yeah, you liked it when are we shifting to film criticism?

[00:31:45] Well, I was the arts and entertainment editor so I could occasionally I got to do a few

[00:31:49] you know reviews every so often either for the magazine or for the website and

[00:31:53] You know, I had a what's seven six seven year run there

[00:31:57] And then like in the time that I was there the magazine

[00:32:01] Changed ownership and things were going in a weird direction and then wound up changing ownership a couple more times after I left

[00:32:07] And just you know

[00:32:08] But I kind of felt like the time it had come to sort of press on so

[00:32:13] After that I

[00:32:15] You know, I you get into the world of freelance and things sort of start popping around

[00:32:19] So for a while for a year

[00:32:20] I edited a website that AOL was starting called queer cited that was supposed to be sort of a fun

[00:32:26] You know

[00:32:27] LGBTQ plus like pop culture site and then they decided instead they were gonna buy HuffPo and so then they just

[00:32:34] unceremoniously not only killed it but like

[00:32:36] erased everything that was on it like they they sold the domain name to logo and it just became like a

[00:32:41] It would just take you to logo but every everything I wrote everything everybody else wrote for that site just put into the internet

[00:32:49] Ether, I mean, I guess you can find some of it on the internet way back machine

[00:32:52] But like, you know, I was really annoyed. It's because that's there

[00:32:54] I

[00:32:56] Started reviewing movies for MSNBC calm which I did for several years like five years and then I think in

[00:33:02] 2013

[00:33:04] I'm fuzzy on dates

[00:33:05] I think I started is when I started reviewing for the rap and then while I was doing that

[00:33:09] I was also had started programming

[00:33:12] working the program department for outfast, which is the Los Angeles LGBTQ plus film festival so

[00:33:19] Like a lot of my peers these days who don't have like one full-time job

[00:33:23] That's the whole thing, you know

[00:33:25] A lot of us have sort of one foot in in reviewing films for

[00:33:29] Websites or radio stations or podcasts or whatever and then one foot also in film festival programming

[00:33:34] So I've got a few more questions there, but this is germaine to this discussion in the book

[00:33:39] You talk about how

[00:33:41] you know for a long time

[00:33:43] LGBTQ plus films are hard to come by and hard to get still to this day, you know

[00:33:49] Well, you talk about how a movie breaks through and becomes more modern success

[00:33:55] And then we believe there's gonna be a floodgate opens, you know

[00:33:58] It's after broke right mountain is the best example, but even after moonlight, but even earlier

[00:34:03] There's some times when it's like, you know, there's a you know dog day afternoon

[00:34:07] It's like oh all of a sudden there's this big twist in the movie

[00:34:09] I don't want to spoil that one like citizen Kane Aaron make it really upset but they so you keep

[00:34:15] Saying we're expecting this it doesn't happen. However, a lot of your time covering

[00:34:21] LGBTQ plus like made entertainment was before

[00:34:25] Access was widely available to it

[00:34:28] So when you're editing for for the advocate are you editing for the people that are reading them?

[00:34:34] The the the periodical going

[00:34:36] I'm really writing this for the people that can get their hands on this or are you writing it for the people that I know?

[00:34:42] This isn't reaching people that want to see this in Omaha, Nebraska

[00:34:46] But I want them to know it's out there like what's the point of view? Oh the latter

[00:34:51] I mean first of all

[00:34:53] It's not like there was you know

[00:34:55] So much

[00:34:56] LGBTQ plus material in the in the culture that we could pick and choose like if it was showing it one theater in New

[00:35:03] York if it was a film that was on the festival circuit like we were on it, you know because we needed to talk about something

[00:35:08] But also like by this point, you know, you've got you know, I guess maybe VHS is still happening

[00:35:14] But you definitely got DVD going on so it's not like these movies weren't eventually gonna be more accessible

[00:35:20] But yeah, a lot of times these are movies that are gonna open in New York and LA maybe San Francisco in Chicago

[00:35:25] They're not gonna have you know huge

[00:35:27] Theatrical footprints but they are eventually gonna get to people and and that's the thing that changes as

[00:35:33] Home video happens, but I mean like we have to remember there's a very long period before that

[00:35:39] But you know when I when I was living in Dallas when I moved there in in 89

[00:35:43] There was a there was a story there called tape lenders and they had

[00:35:47] a really big gay and lesbian section that had like, you know

[00:35:51] the killing of Sister George and the Ritz and you know boys in the band and and and all those kind of movies and

[00:35:56] That was sort of my like again so much of my

[00:35:59] You know interest in this has been kind of self-taught

[00:36:02] I just would go in and like alright, what am I not seeing?

[00:36:05] What am I gonna rent you know that I've read about in Vito Russo or that I know that is a thing

[00:36:09] But I haven't watched yet. So that became like my sort of postgraduate, you know, queer studies film school. I love it

[00:36:16] That's fantastic

[00:36:28] Questions then book questions, but I want you to talk about podcasting briefly. It is a huge part of your life

[00:36:33] But you were an early adopter

[00:36:35] To like to making podcasts and I have made a podcast in your home

[00:36:40] And it is like we are in the past making a podcast

[00:36:44] It is there's a tape record there is there is technology that I didn't know people were still using

[00:36:50] But but but you got you and Dave have been making linoleum knife for how many years now 10?

[00:36:56] No, it'll be 14

[00:36:58] In in November

[00:37:00] I mean this is those early adopt. This is like Mark Maron territory. Like this is early adopters to film podcasting

[00:37:08] What was the the impetus to make the podcast and what is that done for you and Dave and and and your careers?

[00:37:16] sure, well, I mean even then I kind of felt like we were we were coming in late because

[00:37:22] other people had been doing it and it was my dear friend gray Drake she and

[00:37:27] And her friend Ariana used to do a podcast called the popcorn mafia and

[00:37:33] I ran into them at at a theater in town. They're like, oh my god

[00:37:38] We want to have you on your we want to have you on our podcast and I was like great. What's a podcast?

[00:37:44] So Gariana had to sort of explain to me like what it was and how it worked. I'm like, oh, okay

[00:37:48] I sure fine. Yeah, this is like 2008 2009

[00:37:52] And so I went on and I think Dave went on later and that was sort of my limited perception of what what?

[00:37:59] podcasts were and then in

[00:38:04] 2009 2010 I

[00:38:06] Spent a while doing a TV show on the now dead current network called the Rotten Tomatoes show

[00:38:12] I was one of their regular contributing critics and then there was another show on IFC called the grid

[00:38:19] That was sort of all about like here's what's happening this week and all these you know in film and on the wind on the internet

[00:38:24] and video games and yet another and

[00:38:27] both of those shows got cancelled out around the same time and

[00:38:31] You know, I just I was my first exposure to that kind of thing

[00:38:34] I hadn't really worked in TV much at all

[00:38:36] And so I remember one at one point being really dejected and I said Dave

[00:38:40] I want us to do a podcast because I want to show that nobody can cancel but I love it

[00:38:46] And so gray likes, you know like had some older equipment that she sold us and and that's kind of how we started and

[00:38:54] You know, it's it is turned into this thing where like, you know now we have a

[00:38:59] Really? Yeah, I'm not gonna say a gigantically successful patreon

[00:39:03] We're not Neil Gaiman

[00:39:04] But I mean like it's it's we we make a nice

[00:39:06] We make a nice tidy sum every month then it helps, you know pay the rent and things and it gives us an outlet

[00:39:12] To do anything we want, you know

[00:39:15] I think there are a lot of publications that we've worked for that are not particularly interested in the three hour

[00:39:21] Portuguese movie that plays on two screens

[00:39:23] But that movie is catnip for Dave White and he wants to see it

[00:39:27] And if I can see it too great and we're gonna talk about it

[00:39:30] And I think our listeners are people who love the fact that yes, we will tell you about the new spider-man movie

[00:39:36] We will tell you about you know the fall guy, but we're also going to talk about the three hour Portuguese movie

[00:39:42] And and so, you know it's it's a fun experience for us the patreon shows have allowed us to dig deeper into

[00:39:49] Categories like television and food in a way that we've nobody was gonna certainly, you know

[00:39:54] Offer us the opportunity to do for for anybody else's behalf

[00:39:58] So yeah, it's it's been a blast and I love doing it and and you know that it's a that it's gotten me into

[00:40:04] Other places like your show like maximum film

[00:40:08] You know breakfast all day which you know Christy and I and Matt actually decided to create after you know

[00:40:13] What the flick got canceled?

[00:40:19] Again it's a thing we're like if you know

[00:40:22] So much of media has been about like I'm writing for this

[00:40:25] publication somebody else owns or I am a talking head on this TV show that somebody else owns and

[00:40:30] What's great about podcasting is it's yours

[00:40:32] You know unless you're on a network or something or it's you know some NPR show like if you're on serial or whatever for most people

[00:40:41] Podcasts the thing they are doing in their garage at their kitchen table and they can post episodes

[00:40:46] Whatever they want they can pull the plug whenever they want they can talk about whatever they want and you know

[00:40:51] It's it's really liberating especially if you've been working in the media and having to deal with other people's parameters

[00:40:57] You're speaking my language obviously I my question though is this this is a great

[00:41:01] It's a good time anytime just do it

[00:41:04] six

[00:41:05] You podcasting does everything that you said it does but it also

[00:41:11] Gives everyone a microphone so jokers like me

[00:41:15] I'm literally looking at me who have like very little film education

[00:41:21] and

[00:41:23] No journalism experience and I can can talk into a microphone

[00:41:29] And if we gain a following then people are listening to me

[00:41:33] Talk about movies the same way they're listening they think in their head the same way

[00:41:37] They're listening to an actual professional film critic talk about it

[00:41:41] So I understand that you don't have to take a side there because you do both

[00:41:45] And I also understand that it's been beneficial to you

[00:41:49] But is there a is there a frustration in the pivot from?

[00:41:53] You know everyone's always blamed the critics when they don't like them if the critics don't like

[00:41:58] Something you guys if you write a pan for a Marvel movie people are coming for you

[00:42:03] right and you know that's part of the gig and I think most critics enjoy that they relish that because

[00:42:07] They know that they're just giving an opinion and it's not their job to please anyone

[00:42:12] And that's what makes them great film critics, but is there a frustration or or I guess?

[00:42:19] Just an understanding of a pivot knowing that on Rotten Tomatoes

[00:42:23] Like you said where there's 300 reviews to the latest Nolan movie, and yeah, there's a top critic section, but

[00:42:31] People are gonna see a tomato or a green splat and in their heads for the majority of people that use that site

[00:42:38] They are correlating that with journalism and a bastion of film criticism is that what does that do to you on a day-to-day basis?

[00:42:46] You know I mean

[00:42:47] I think one of the the upsides of the internet and and podcasting whatever else is it is a

[00:42:53] Democratic process it is open to the floodgates. It has taken away the idea of

[00:42:58] Gatekeeping you know that the media used to have the downside is that it has taken away the gatekeeping

[00:43:07] And so I think it becomes incumbent then upon

[00:43:10] Consumers of not just movies but of film criticism and of news on the internet in general

[00:43:17] To be more demanding about like who's telling me this?

[00:43:21] What's their background and it's not like you have to have a specific background if you're listening to a show

[00:43:26] People who super love Star Wars or Marvel movies and their context is other

[00:43:32] Star Wars movies and other Marvel movies then fine

[00:43:34] And then that's the conversation you want to hear and be a part of great it exists

[00:43:38] And you can take it, but you know I think you need to know

[00:43:42] What it is that the people are coming from I mean you are always the first to say hey look

[00:43:47] I'm not a real film critic. I but I mean you know what you studied film

[00:43:50] And I've been talking about this with you for years and you know what you're talking about like

[00:43:55] It's not like I got the Wizard of Oz did not hand me a certificate that says I'm a film critic

[00:44:00] You know true. We're all making it up as we go along

[00:44:03] We're all making it up as we go along you know and so you've been putting in the time of sitting through these

[00:44:10] You know a very specific kind of you know filmed entertainment, but you know you're still watching them all and you are

[00:44:18] Analyzing and and you know coming up with this is why this works

[00:44:21] This is why this doesn't work as my certificate

[00:44:26] Critic is what I'm gonna do that's all I could have you and I we did a podcast for a year where we talked

[00:44:31] About movies including Citizen King

[00:44:37] But you know what but you won with the camp when the time came to talk about it you totally held your end

[00:44:41] I do I appreciate that and I had to be clear and this is a little back history on that podcast

[00:44:46] I don't know if anybody cares, but I came to Alonzo with the idea called my movie homework where we

[00:44:51] We do a movie that's out in theaters now and Alonzo's like if you like that you really should watch this and I go

[00:44:57] And do the homework and he came up with a

[00:45:00] An idea that made me a lot more esteemed as a host

[00:45:04] Because we were watching movies and both talking about them my idea was I don't know anything and Alonzo's idea was well

[00:45:10] Let's act like you do know something which is which is so kind of him to do that

[00:45:15] Hey, and we talked to to film critics who I

[00:45:19] Listen respect and and filmmakers and you know you never came off like the yokel

[00:45:25] Give yourself some credit the I never was for looking at the times of the movie theaters

[00:45:29] But did I walk did I look at Rotten Tomatoes every day as a teenager?

[00:45:33] Did I know the names of not just Roger Ebert?

[00:45:36] but Michael Phillips and a o Scott and Alonzo de Raldi and Richard Roper and Owen Gleiberman and

[00:45:43] Claudia Pugh and and and you know on and on so like I knew all that like I knew all that as a teenager

[00:45:49] And so that for me it was dream come true for me so much appreciated

[00:45:53] I have to ask this because I want to be you know we've got other things to do today

[00:45:57] You've written four books four books

[00:46:01] 101 must-see movies for gay men and Hollywood pride

[00:46:05] representation LGBTQ representation and film a history of it, and then you've written two other books that are both about Christmas

[00:46:13] Yes, where where does that and I probably should have done this in the childhood

[00:46:16] But what like you don't have just like an affinity for Christmas in?

[00:46:21] You will say things that remind me of my buddy Brandon like well just to get a quick fix

[00:46:26] I turned on the Christmas movie on Friday night here in July, and I'm like you have a problem sir like that

[00:46:32] Where does that come from where I know where and you can tell the story about bibs if you want introduce you to

[00:46:37] Hallmark movies, but sure I the just you and Christmas being synonymous

[00:46:43] Where does that stem from?

[00:46:46] I've always loved Christmas

[00:46:47] I've been one of the benefits of being in in my family in being a big family was that Christmas is always really great like

[00:46:53] My mom made an effort to really you know put on like you know the the dinner and just all the stuff surrounding it

[00:46:59] And for me as a kid

[00:47:02] I'm sort of the change of life baby like my nearest sibling to me is five years older my oldest sister is

[00:47:08] 13 years older so much of my childhood involved my

[00:47:13] Siblings being off at college or whatever and Christmas was when people came home, and so that was a really great time of year

[00:47:18] I was thrilled to see them, and so I've always loved Christmas, and then I've always loved movies

[00:47:24] So inevitably I guess it was the two were gonna come together and over the years as a critic

[00:47:30] I would be at publications in December rolled around be like oh

[00:47:33] Give me a list of like you know five Christmas movies that people don't realize are Christmas movies

[00:47:37] Or you know that that kind of thing and so I thought oh this

[00:47:41] There's maybe like a book here because nobody else had really written one like that and

[00:47:46] You know I pitched it and it happened and it's amazing

[00:47:50] But yeah, I have now I sort of joke like I'm the June guy and the December guy

[00:47:55] I have my gay film books of my Christmas film books, and so those are that's when you know

[00:48:00] Please book me on your podcast. That's your niche

[00:48:02] One film criticism question is there any I'm sure there are several because watching things multiple times

[00:48:09] Helps me a bunch and sometimes. I was just wrong about a movie

[00:48:12] I've said that memento the first time I watched it. I hated the second time

[00:48:16] I loved it we talked you saw the holdovers at a film festival, and I remember you going

[00:48:19] I just I don't know it was okay, and then you watch it again

[00:48:22] You're like no

[00:48:22] I really really like this movie is there a movie like a big name movie not something in the weeds a big-name

[00:48:28] Movie for listeners out there that you wrote a review on

[00:48:31] Like you had to turn it in the next day or whatever

[00:48:34] And you gave it a pan review and then upon second viewing you remember just a stark like man

[00:48:40] I swing in a mess here. I didn't get this one. I

[00:48:44] Mean not so much with movies that I reviewed just because I think if I pan something

[00:48:48] It's unlikely that I'm ever gonna see it again

[00:48:51] Though the one the one that came up actually was when we were doing a film in a movie

[00:48:55] I had seen bringing up baby in college and thought

[00:49:00] It's no what's up dog, you know, I I thought I thought like Catherine Hepper was kind of overdoing it

[00:49:05] It was all a little too manic or whatever and then I watched it again when we did an episode I was like

[00:49:09] Oh, oh, no. No, this is like one of the great comedies ever made

[00:49:13] So yeah, absolutely, you know revisiting films like just yesterday

[00:49:17] I went to see challengers for a second time and loved that movie the first time

[00:49:21] But I caught all these details that I missed the first time

[00:49:24] It's you don't always especially if a movie's throwing a lot at you. It's hard to absorb it all in one viewing

[00:49:28] So, you know, I wish I had time to see more things more than once but yeah, absolutely

[00:49:34] My my mind has changed and I always say in these interviews

[00:49:37] There's no wrong answers, but you not giving Oppenheimer another chance was the correct answer

[00:49:42] It's fine. It's whatever who's got the time Daniel. I do I know because I know you very well

[00:49:49] I know what's up doc is a is a national treasure of yours Willy Wonka or Charlie the Chocolate Factory

[00:49:54] No, Willy Wonka it is really wonka not Charlie the Chocolate Factory. I'm sorry. I always mix those up

[00:49:59] Yeah, Willy Wonka the Chocolate Factory another one of your favorites any other just before we dive into Hollywood Pride any other just

[00:50:06] Absolute like Mount Rushmore movies for you

[00:50:08] You know if gentlemen prefer blondes is on TV. I'm watching that baby all the way to the end

[00:50:14] Fantastic. All right, let's talk about this book

[00:50:16] Yes, look is amazing. It's beautiful. Even if you just think through the pictures

[00:50:20] It's worthy of you buying it having said that I am I'm a history major film minor

[00:50:26] So maybe the book was just for me

[00:50:28] But basically what you do over the course of you know

[00:50:31] Just over a half dozen chapters is you take a time period of film history and you give a history a historical context

[00:50:39] For what is going on first and it is great as someone who taught history for 20 years

[00:50:44] Providing context is important

[00:50:46] And you start to understand and empathize more when you understand the context and context sort of drives that culture

[00:50:52] So you do that first then you talk about the films and then you talk about the icons or the people that were involved

[00:50:57] In that era this change is obviously over the course of film history and it is wonderful

[00:51:03] And I have a few questions about

[00:51:05] several of those eras of history

[00:51:06] But you and I got a chance to interview actually twice filmmaker Justin Simeon and on one occasion

[00:51:12] He said the history of black cinema is the history of cinema and

[00:51:17] For me as someone who knew a lot of what you were talking about in the in the last two chapters

[00:51:23] And some of what you're talking about in the middle, but hardly anything from an LGBTQ perspective before then

[00:51:30] Mm-hmm. I just got the feeling that you could make that same argument for

[00:51:36] LGBTQ cinema that the history of

[00:51:39] Not quite to the extent of black cinema, but sure is a lasting legacy here that I think people just don't know about

[00:51:47] Yeah, I mean, you know Justin talks about how like, you know, we look at the sort of the dawn of cinema

[00:51:52] we talk about you know, like

[00:51:55] You know birth of a nation and steamboat Willie. It's like water was doing here

[00:52:00] You know with with queer movies, I think it's more about like well

[00:52:04] We've always been there like we've been we've been behind the camera

[00:52:07] We've been in front of the camera for as long as there's been a camera

[00:52:10] And then as far as like, you know, the actual storytelling goes

[00:52:14] I think you know you look back at like these early attempts to tell really sort of serious

[00:52:20] You know gay love stories in the German Weimar period before the Nazis come in and like destroy all the prints of everything

[00:52:27] And then in American comedy you you know

[00:52:31] These sort of one two realers you get these sort of like

[00:52:34] mincy effeminate characters or you get like, you know

[00:52:38] big burly comedians

[00:52:40] You know in drag or whatever and it's like people know what that means they get what what's being told there

[00:52:46] So I mean like it's it's it appears throughout and then you have the production code come in in the 30s

[00:52:51] Which you know outright bans the portrayal of you know sex perversion

[00:52:57] Which is how they they umbrella the whole thing but you know

[00:53:00] If you're a smart enough screenwriter and director you can kind of like have these characters where anyone paint is like, oh, okay

[00:53:06] I see what we're doing here

[00:53:08] You know that's what you say in the book at the when the production code goes away

[00:53:11] That's the first time we think we're gonna see if the floodgates open of some writer cinema

[00:53:15] It doesn't happen, but you also point out. This is so great

[00:53:19] I one of my favorite movies of all time is the Maltese Falcon and I'm I'm reading this book and I get to

[00:53:25] Like what are the what are the films with LGBTQ representation and I fought Maltese Falcon's like the second one of the chapter

[00:53:31] And I was like what and then and then I look at and I read it and you talk about the Cairo character

[00:53:37] You talk about some musical like oh, yeah intros and and all of a sudden. I'm like, yeah. Yeah, absolutely

[00:53:44] Yeah, I'd 100% see that it was that a fascinating part of this journey

[00:53:48] Or is that something that you've always just kind of clocked your whole life

[00:53:52] Well, you know, I mean I believe me for this entire book I'm standing on the shoulder of a lot of giants

[00:53:58] You know, so like Vito Russo talks about that in the books of say his closet. They show the clip of

[00:54:03] You know Peter Laurie is Joel Cairo in the movie of the celluloid closet

[00:54:07] So I mean I there are people along the way who've been clocking this stuff and I'm just sort of like

[00:54:13] sweeping up behind them and reminding people that they're out there but

[00:54:16] Yeah, you know, I think it is

[00:54:19] What I'm glad that you you point out the historical segments I appreciate that because I think for a lot of people who pick up

[00:54:24] this book

[00:54:25] They aren't necessarily gonna know that history, you know

[00:54:28] If you're writing a book about like World War two and cinema

[00:54:32] People have a general idea of what you're talking about and maybe they might need to know about specific dates for you

[00:54:37] Know different things going on but like a lot of

[00:54:40] LGBTQ plus history is not really taught a lot in American school

[00:54:44] So I kind of felt that he'd be like, alright, so this is what was going on and you know

[00:54:48] And so thank you. I I

[00:54:51] That that context was well

[00:54:53] and it's also like for me as someone who like I taught college level US history that's part of the course and

[00:54:59] You put a lot of emphasis on the Stonewall riots when you do that if you read this book

[00:55:03] And it's literally a page of chapter guys

[00:55:05] It's not like he's writing a history book, but it gives you context of how there was a lot more going on

[00:55:12] But you know even with right even with just basic rights like in Los Angeles and a few other cities

[00:55:17] Oh of what was going on how these protests, you know those things take decades

[00:55:21] You know centuries even to come to fruition. And so having that context

[00:55:28] Really does drive the enjoyment of the book at least it did for me

[00:55:30] I mean that was a huge a huge deal for me no doubt about it

[00:55:34] And the other thing I love and you do this for three straight chapters

[00:55:37] There's a chapter in the 30s 40s and 50s and then you kind of do 60s and 70s together and then you do 80s

[00:55:43] And a little bit of 90s. That's a the AIDS

[00:55:46] Epidemic and then and then you do like modern day. I think that's correct. Am I missing one in there?

[00:55:51] I'm missing one in there. I think it

[00:55:53] You pretty much got it. So in the 30s 40s and 50s, you have a a Hitchcock interstitial in your book

[00:56:01] It's perfect. It's like what was Hitchcock doing in this he had so many

[00:56:07] So much even coded queer representation in his movies that he gets an interstitial in three chapters of this book

[00:56:15] And and it is you know for me someone who once again is more of a layman when it comes to this stuff

[00:56:21] Rope is up there. I know it's going to be up there. I I adore that movie

[00:56:25] But even I learned I didn't know carrie grant was up for the role of rope and was like no

[00:56:29] This is this is too gay. I'm not doing it. It's basically what can grant said

[00:56:33] so and montgomery clint so how much like that

[00:56:36] Is something I don't know if I have a question here

[00:56:39] I just found like if you're a if you're a film buff

[00:56:42] I think there's even something for you like you're not a film critic, but you're somebody that loves movies

[00:56:46] Hitchcock's all over this book. You know, it's not like you're just you're just pulling deep into the

[00:56:51] In the into the in the into the crevices of whatever this a film is to find movies

[00:56:56] It's everywhere

[00:56:58] Yeah, I mean with hitchcock like I think most most filmmakers that get sort of like their one big moment

[00:57:03] And we talk about all the stuff

[00:57:05] But the way that he just kind of keeps weaving these characters through whether it's you know, mrs

[00:57:09] danvers and rebecca or you know bruno and strangers on a train like it was just so interesting

[00:57:14] I wanted to kind of just sort of like touch base. What's he up to this decade?

[00:57:17] Who's he giving us? What's he writing about? What what is he? You know, what's he slipping past the censors basically?

[00:57:23] um

[00:57:24] You know, so yeah

[00:57:26] You know and because this is a book that tcm is putting out like obviously I needed to focus on

[00:57:31] Classic hollywood as much as possible, but I I really give my my editors

[00:57:36] credit for letting me sort of like have these

[00:57:40] Sidebars about like well, let's talk about you know underground experimental film of the 1950s. Let's talk about you know

[00:57:46] pornography of the late 60s and early 70s because in a lot of cases this is where actual

[00:57:52] lgbtq plus storytelling is happening not on the studio lot but like in

[00:57:57] You know some tiny apartment in new york city on on eight millimeter, you know

[00:58:01] Uh, and it's all part of the larger story here. You don't get to

[00:58:05] The new queer cinema of the 90s without

[00:58:09] The hollywood stuff and the experimental stuff

[00:58:11] So, you know it all becomes it all comes together as part of the story

[00:58:14] It's so funny you do you talk about beyond the valley of the dolls in the book and I read matt singer's opposable thumbs

[00:58:21] and hearing

[00:58:23] Those two sides of that story

[00:58:25] Like you know some of the hearing some of the dialogue that that ebert writes and

[00:58:30] And your version versus ebert's version for matt singer was great. It was a it was such a fun time

[00:58:35] And i'm so glad it was included in there

[00:58:38] Oh, yeah

[00:58:38] No, it's it's this crazy thing where like you get the 1970 and 20th century fox is like

[00:58:45] You know like most of the studios in town reeling from having spent a lot of money on movies that didn't recoup

[00:58:51] You know in fox's case there was cleopatra. There was also

[00:58:55] Star which was like julie andrew's big follow-up to the sound of music which tanked and so they're like, okay

[00:59:01] The the kids, you know, the baby boomer generation is like really is coming of age now

[00:59:06] They don't want to see these mega musicals. They want to go see easy rider

[00:59:09] How do we get to the kids?

[00:59:11] I know we're going to make a couple of x-rated movies and they make a myra breckenridge and beyond the valley of the dolls

[00:59:17] Which are fascinating films in their own way, but also tanked

[00:59:20] There was a whole x-rated like the push then all of a sudden it just didn't work out and they there's

[00:59:25] It was a midnight cowboy

[00:59:26] He says the only x-rated movie to win academy award that was the best picture

[00:59:29] And then it was then it became rated r later on

[00:59:32] It's it's all fascinating. I also uh was very very thankful in reading the book

[00:59:37] That's because of hanging out with you and doing a couple of podcasts with you

[00:59:42] I've gotten to talk to what amounts to be legends of of queer cinema

[00:59:46] And I didn't probably at the time talking to them really respect that like reading about cheryl dunye

[00:59:53] I was just like why whoa, you know, so I feel like you get you garner a new perspective

[01:00:00] It is it is fascinating history that that hasn't been told often like you say in our education system

[01:00:07] Or not at all

[01:00:09] Unfortunately at some time and even for people that love movies. I think that you're going to find a lot here

[01:00:14] Um my last question about this book, although I could I could talk about it all day

[01:00:18] My last question about the book is is isn't crash such an amazing movie?

[01:00:26] The david croninberg one. Yes

[01:00:28] I I actually want to know I look I couldn't find it. Maybe I didn't look hard enough

[01:00:32] I didn't do much research. What was your review on crash when it came out?

[01:00:37] And for those of you that don't know since he's drinking some water and trying to choose his words widely crash

[01:00:42] Won the best picture

[01:00:44] Uh the year that broke back mountain came out that broke back mountain was a shoe in

[01:00:49] Deservedly for this award and it was pretty much decided that and you talk about this in the book that kind of old hollywood

[01:00:57] uh had just decided we're not gonna watch this movie and and we're not gonna be a part of it and so they

[01:01:03] I guess they created a coalition

[01:01:05] Around this made me think of another question. So it's not my last question. Just keep that in mind

[01:01:09] Created a coalition around crash

[01:01:11] To make it because it also deals with social issues

[01:01:16] And so they it seemed like a a a sav they could put on their

[01:01:21] Bigoted wounds. Do you know what I mean? Like that's what it seemed like. What did you think of it? Oh

[01:01:26] No, no as well. I mean when I saw the movie

[01:01:28] I remember dave and I went and saw it and uh, it was a it was a half full theater

[01:01:34] And so we could tell that if we were gonna laugh at something

[01:01:38] We had to like just sort of punch each other in the leg

[01:01:42] Because we were gonna we didn't want to be disrespectful to other people who were thinking the movie and we punch each other in

[01:01:47] The leg a lot

[01:01:48] um

[01:01:49] And he would frequently later refer to oh, I love the scene where racism pushes sandra bullock down the stairs

[01:01:55] um

[01:01:56] But no kenny teran of the los angeles times the day after the oscars that year wrote about how

[01:02:01] Like, you know

[01:02:02] There was this concerted effort among like older more conservative academy members to not watch broke back mountain to not acknowledge broke back mountain

[01:02:09] But they the the idea was but if they voted for crash then that could be seen as they were doing something about the race

[01:02:15] Problem in america. Yeah

[01:02:17] Okay, and that that leaves me and this is I don't know if it's a question or a comment but or

[01:02:21] Just a cell of the book

[01:02:23] Number one was the history context for me and how much that helped me and really like drew me into the book

[01:02:28] I think number two for me is you know, I think a lot of people outside of hollywood or you know

[01:02:35] Coastal elite whatever you want to call it

[01:02:37] They get this feeling that hollywood's run by all of these elitist people who are just pushing an agenda

[01:02:44] And if you read this book you will find

[01:02:47] That lgbtq plus representation and people fighting for it were fighting and are fighting

[01:02:55] regularly for

[01:02:56] Representation against hollywood not not with them. They didn't join arms and go hollywood. Let's do this thing together

[01:03:05] Typically hollywood is standing in the way of representation

[01:03:10] Yeah, when when pundits talk about oh the the the you know

[01:03:14] The the woke agenda to make all of our our shows, you know queer and and you know

[01:03:19] like destroy our children's lives i'm like

[01:03:21] y'all are

[01:03:23] Anointing us with the power we have never had like, you know

[01:03:26] Every every jot of representation we've managed to get over the years has been a hard one

[01:03:32] Uh, so yeah, you're right. It's it is absolutely the opposite

[01:03:35] Yeah, you every you still celebrate every time there is gay representation or queer representation in a hallmark movie and and

[01:03:42] That should tell you all you need to know like even at the base level of christmas tv movies

[01:03:47] Like representation matters. It's important

[01:03:49] That's you know

[01:03:50] And representation matters on family-friendly entertainment as much as it matters on x-rated beyond the valley of the dolls

[01:03:55] Uh, yeah, if not more not more so I would agree with that as well

[01:03:58] It's all right here in this book hollywood prod a celebration of lgbtq plus

[01:04:03] Representation and perseverance in film. It's out may 14th

[01:04:06] You can pre-order right now wherever you order books also pre-order the the audible copy as well

[01:04:12] That's going to be a journey alonzo. I love you buddy. This has been so much fun

[01:04:15] It just it really really you you're the best sir. Thank you so much

[01:04:18] I really appreciate it and i'm so glad you like the book

[01:04:21] I i'm sure we'll dig into it at bramble jam absolutely we will even bramble fest maybe uh and but bramble fest

[01:04:29] Until then may I be not the first one to wish you a very merry christmas

[01:04:35] Deck the hallmarks of bramble jam podcast is produced by erin shay

[01:04:39] For more information on deck the homer you can go to deck the hallmark

[01:04:42] Dot com for more information on the deck the hallmark family you can go to bramble jam plus

[01:04:45] Dot com deck the hallmark is presented by philo tv for a free trial of philo go to philo.tv

[01:04:57] You're about to hear some ads that help keep the lights on here in the old studio

[01:05:03] Thanks for listening or don't listen. It's really up to you at this point. Is that the end of the show?

[01:05:09] I mean you're listening to me. Hi

[01:05:11] But here they come I promise they're coming. Yep. Here they are

[01:05:15] Happy day