Black Panther: Wakanda Forever

[00:00:03] This is a Bramble Jam Podcast

[00:00:45] What a time to be alive, Bramble Jam. What a time to be alive indeed, my friends. Uh, right guy, how you doing? I'm good, how are you? Doing good, we're approaching one month away from your wedding here. That's right. Getting close. Yeah, I uh... 20 seconds. About a month out. Today's the 20 seconds. 40 some odd days. 40 some odd days. How you feeling? You know, I feel like, it's interesting, I'm sure you guys felt the same way. I understand when people say they're nervous ahead of a wedding because there's like so much that goes into it.

[00:01:14] But like, in no way, shape or form am I nervous to get married. Sure. So it's just like, the hard part is right now, it's like we're stressed about, I don't know if you guys had this, it's like, you know, not everybody RSVPs right away. Nope. And I'm very nervous about like, I'm like, well, we gotta make the table arrangements like, you know, and so we're running a little low on that. I think we're still waiting for like close to 100 people to RSVP.

[00:01:39] Dude, I'm telling you, people, it's crazy how people don't respond until they absolutely have to, to those things. And it's crazy. And then I was just walking the dog just now, Brian, and I was like, oh, we wanted to get like, cause I really wanted, I don't know if we've talked about this on the air and I don't know if Alyssa will appreciate this, but you know, I'm an open book. I, I really wanted Luna. Oh yeah. I think maybe we did touch on this briefly. We talked about this. Yeah. Apparently a couple of weeks ago I had, uh, not on the air, but you and I talked about it. I think maybe on the ride from the airport.

[00:02:10] Well, yes. Well, I'm worried about it being on the air. Cause a couple of weeks ago I had an existential crisis on the air about how much longer my boyish charm will last. And someone in the comments was like, this was literally just on the best of, so apparently I'm just stressed about this all of the time. Every year top 10 boys charm is waning. You obsessed about it. Neither here nor there. Um, but, uh, I think Dan, I think what we were talking about then is my pitch to Alyssa.

[00:02:36] Cause Alyssa, it makes a great point that, uh, having just Luna there all day. And even if we had her in a separate room, we would be concerned about a distraction. Don't need it too much going on. Yeah. My pitch was, and I'd love to put this to a poll. Um, my pitch was getting so much trouble. Yeah, it's fine. What do we know? Maybe Alyssa won't listen to this one diligently for the audience out there. She listens every episode, even though she hasn't watched a single Marvel movie.

[00:03:02] Um, yeah, well, she actually, she said to me earlier that she, uh, was bummed. She didn't watch black Panther. I don't know if she meant this one or the first one. So she has seen black man, but, um, I, I said, we should bring someone in to the wedding. That isn't a guest. Like, you know, we should, and they walk Luna down the aisle. Uh, they, we stand Luna at a safe distance away from Alyssa. So she doesn't jump on Alyssa's dress. Luna is a jumper.

[00:03:27] Uh, and then that person take Luna home, but then that person, they missed the ceremony, but they get to come back for the reception, which I thought someone would have taken us up on. I told him I would do it. Sure. And he was like, but I don't want to know. I mean, you could hire somebody on like Rover, but, but to be, to be very, very clear. I don't think that solves it for Alyssa. I think that solves it for rye guy. And that's what I'm being very selfish here.

[00:03:56] I've initially, and maybe this is its own discussion. Initially, you know, we were going to, the wedding processional was going to come out and I was going to, my mom and I were going to walk down the aisle last before Alyssa come out. I have, and baby people are saying that's a unconventional. I have since swapped that. I do want to walk down the aisle with my mom. So we're going to come out first. That was my idea. The reason I wanted that is because selfishly, I want to watch everyone walk down the aisle. It's the best part of being a groom at a wedding. 100%.

[00:04:23] And so, uh, and so selfishly, I really want to, Alyssa won't get that. The Luna would already be there. I really want to watch our dog who I love walk down the aisle. And your wife, obviously. Yeah. Well, that's that was close. Hey, right guy. Can I ask you this? Do you want to marry your dog? No, I mean, not no, but I do. She's a Greenville. She's a Greenville. She's a Greenville. Yeah, she is. Yeah. That Greenville pride of Greenville. Uh, I, right. I will say this in 10 years from now.

[00:04:51] Um, are you going to be more upset that Luna didn't walk down the aisle at your wedding or looking at the wedding pictures going is Alyssa a little bit distracted? No, it would have been no. I said I totally get it. I think there was a solve, but that's okay. Like marriage as I'm told is compromise. Yeah, ma'am. So, yep. And so I think it'll be fine, but that's why my, my, my belabored point there being, um, is that we got to get like sticks, like drink stirs with Luna's face on it.

[00:05:21] I don't think we've done that yet. Maybe I should do that during the synopsis. Um, like, but not that I wouldn't be listening. What you guys do stuff during my synopsis. No, I'm locked. I'm locked. I'm locked. Yeah. Um, I appreciate it. No, I feel good. Well, but you also have to know that for the rest of Luna's days, uh, Luna's going to be looking at those wedding photos being like, huh. I wasn't included. I agree. I wasn't part of the family. I agree. You say I'm family and yet, uh, can I tell you this as a tangentially related story?

[00:05:49] I wasn't stressed about my wedding at all. Um, like I was ready to get married and ready for the wedding prep to be done. But on the morning of, uh, our wedding, you threw up, I did not, not even a little bit, but I was supposed to, so our two dogs were at the apartment where Sarah and I would live. We were good Christian folks who didn't live together until we got married and, and, uh, you know, unlike you heathens. And, uh, and so Sarah, I actually talk a lot about that.

[00:06:19] We talk a lot about it. Yeah. It's crazy. You talk a lot about me. Gosh. I think a lot of our wedding prep would have been solved if we had lived together before our wedding. We did it wrong. You're sleeping in different rooms though. We're for sure. Or at least. Well, Luna snores a lot. So I actually do wind up on the couch a lot by like three or 4 a.m. And you want her in your wedding. Anyway, so Sarah had a full day that morning, you know, hair, makeup, the whole bit.

[00:06:43] And I slept in as, you know, as you do, but I, we had to get our dogs to the places they would be staying when we went on our honeymoon. And so I went by the apartment to pick them up. When I opened the door, they bolted. So my morning, which I'd already slept in, I was already just barely going to make it to the church on time to get dressed, started with, it's like 1030 in the morning and my dog split and ran opposite directions in an apartment complex on a golf course.

[00:07:12] That's wild. And so, you know, that's crazy. Yeah. I can't even. So I called, I called my wife and I was like, Hey, everything's fine. I'm just letting you know, dogs are lost. If I'm late, that's why. Yeah. Fair. And I rolled in and all of my groomsmen were already in their tuxes. Where the heck were they? Why were they not helping you with this dog situation? I think they were all, they didn't know about it. I like, I told Sarah, I would do it. And they were like, we'll meet you at the place. You should have. One of my groomsmen was keeping one of the dogs. The other dog was staying with a friend of mine. He wasn't a groomsman.

[00:07:43] And so that when I was the last one to show up for my wedding, I made it though. That's one does. You were there. You are married. We're talking Black Panther today. Black Panther Wakanda forever. Are we ready to dive into it? Sure. The whole way through. Sure. This one was originally premiered October 26, 2022, just Hollywood, Los Angeles. I don't have any other information about the theater itself.

[00:08:09] And then a couple of weeks later, November 11th, is that Veterans Day? Shout out. It's Armistice Day, but it's usually, Veterans Day is usually around there, I believe. Yeah. Anyway, that was when it came out. It went a little something like this. November 11th every year. There you go. Happy Veterans Day, everybody. I once in elementary school during a Veterans Day performance played the symbols for Proud to be an American, and I gladly stand out.

[00:08:39] You mean God bless the USA? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. God bless the USA. And yeah, I crushed that. Literally. Yeah. That's a big part of that song. I know. Big deal. Can't have it without it. You can't have it without it. T'Challa, the Black Panther himself, is suffering from a terminal illness. His sister Shuri believes that the heart-shaped herb that gave Black Panther his powers could save him, but the herb was destroyed. You know about it.

[00:09:04] Shuri desperately tries to recreate it synthetically, but can't do it in time, and T'Challa passes away. A year later, Wakanda is facing pressure from countries around the world. We want your vibranium. You can't just have all this vibranium. Other nations are even trying to break in and steal it. Queen Ramanda encourages Shuri to continue working on the heart-shaped herb so that they

[00:09:31] can create a new Black Panther to help protect Wakanda from the rest of the world, but Shuri says that she doesn't think Wakanda needs Black Panther anymore. Can't just do that. The US is trying to use this vibranium detector to try to get it for themselves. What? And they end up getting a hit. It was a hit! It was a hit! Beneath the Atlantic Ocean.

[00:09:54] Before they can recover it, they're attacked by this group of blue-skinned people using sound as a weapon and causing these guys to just jump into the water. Pretty cool scene, I gotta be honest with you. They are led by someone named Namor. Only knowing about the vibranium detector, the CIA, or that it was detected, the CIA thinks

[00:10:19] obviously Wakanda must be storing this vibranium underwater and it must have been them that killed us. And if someone else shows up to confront Ramanda and Shuri, he gives them an ultimatum. Hand over the scientists that created this detector so I could get them out of here or else we're going to attack you. Man. So, do that. Thanks for that.

[00:10:47] Shuri learns from CIA agent Ross that the scientists that created the detector is someone named Riri. Riri turns out just to be a student from MIT. They track her down at the university, but before they can get her to safety, they are pursued by people. Shuri, that's a whole thing. There's a break in, they gotta run away. We got a high-speed chase situation. Pretty good stuff.

[00:11:13] Shuri is taken underwater to meet with Namor who shows her his home and what makes it so special. Namor explains that he has grown bitter towards the surface world because of slavery and genocide that was forced against his people and he proposes that Riri joins them in an alliance against the rest of the world, survivor style, while threatening to destroy Riri if they refuse. This guy is all about ultimatums. Yeah, he is.

[00:11:40] Shuri and Riri are rescued, but two of Namor's guards are killed in the process. He is not pleased and Namor attacks Riri. During the attack, Ramonda dies and Namor vows to return with his entire army to take out the rest of them. Shuri discovers that she can use a remnant of the herb that gave Namor's people their superhuman abilities and able to live underwater and whatnot to recreate the heart-shaped herb.

[00:12:09] Shuri takes it herself and gains the power of the Black Panther. Shuri returns wearing a new Black Panther suit and is accepted by the other tribes as the new Black Panther. Shuri is determined to get revenge on Namor for killing her mom. The battle begins and Shuri manages to trap Namor, making him weaker. The two eventually crash onto this beach and they fight one-on-one.

[00:12:34] Shuri is about to kill him when she has a vision of her mom reminding her to choose a better path. And so instead of killing Namor, Shuri offers him a chance, an ultimatum of herself. Of her own. Of her own, if you will, to surrender and form a peaceful alliance. Namor accepts ending the battle. Shuri plants more heart-shaped herbs to ensure that the Black Panther will always survive into the future.

[00:13:02] While she's away, Mabaku is going to challenge her for the throne of Wakanda. Shuri then travels to Haiti to visit Nakia. There, she is able to finally mourn and grieve the loss of her brother and also the loss of her mother. And then Shuri learns that Nakia and T'Challa secretly had a son who Nakia has been raising secretly in Haiti. And now my friends was...

[00:13:32] Black Panther, Wakanda forever! We did it. We did it. Let's take a break. We'll come back. We'll break this movie down here on... Back to Hallmark! Hello, everybody. Welcome back. We're talking... Hi, everybody. Welcome back. We're talking Black Panther. You want to go one more? Hi, everybody. Welcome back. We're talking Black Panther Wakanda forever today. Everybody thought their podcast just skipped. It's great.

[00:14:01] Hi, everybody. Welcome back. We're talking Black Panther Wakanda forever today. We're going to start with a hot take so we're going to share exactly how we felt about this movie. Rye Guy! Yeah. Lot to talk about here, I believe. Sure. I want to hear your thoughts on Black Panther Wakanda forever. Yeah, I really want to hear your guys' thoughts. Maybe you guys go for... I'm kidding. So we talked about this during the first Black Panther.

[00:14:24] This is obviously a tragically sad real life scenario that creates a very difficult to navigate movie scenario, right? So to that point first, I think Ryan Coogler does an unbelievably incredible job of both paying tribute to T'Challa the character and Chadwick Boseman the person.

[00:14:48] He pays tribute to T'Challa, the fictional character, at the beginning of the film and pays tribute to Chadwick Boseman incredibly beautifully, almost subtly, almost probably less than I thought he would have at the end of the film, but it's not perfect. An impossible tightrope to walk. Yeah, and so to that point, I think that stuff is perfect. And then to that point, the big conversation amongst Marvel nerds and even just kind of the mass public at large is, what do you do here coming into this film?

[00:15:16] A lot of people thought, and I think this sentiment has grown even stronger these days, but at the time, a lot of people thought you should just recast T'Challa. For which, and I'll be curious what you guys think about that. I was adamantly and still am adamantly against that, especially in the time period in which this is being made very, very recently after Chadwick Boseman's death. I don't think the audience would have wanted. It's not Edward Norton to Mark Ruffalo, right?

[00:15:46] It's like Chadwick Boseman died tragically, and T'Challa, the character, even if you can't, but even if you were to take the tragicness of his death aside, this had become an instantly iconic movie character in the span of a couple years. And given the circumstances that again, you can't extract from the situation. I don't think the audience would have just accepted someone else playing the role of T'Challa.

[00:16:10] I do think there was a middle ground scenario that I'll save for my one of Marvel, which is what I would have done, especially after rewatching it. But more on that later. What they do. Listen, I think Letitia Wright does a fine job here. I think what bums me out about her having to take up this mantle, I think it's the absolute right story decision. There was comic precedent for it. It makes total sense given the events of the film and just the pieces they had at their disposal.

[00:16:38] Shuri in Black Panther 1 and Infinity War, I love her as kind of the comic Robin to T'Challa's Batman. Super science, math. Yeah. You lose a lot of that when you make her the main protagonist. Granted, it's also a very serious story. And, you know, her brother just died. Her mom dies during the course. She can't be she can't be just quipping off. But the Shuri version one, the character that Coogler and company designed, I love.

[00:17:07] I think this character, this version of the character has to, again, by its very nature, be a lot more serious. She's got to grow up. Yeah. Yeah. And so I don't think that's my favorite version of Shuri. Shuri, but I think Letitia Wright does a really, really good job here. I wouldn't say it's 10 out of 10, but it's seven and a half and eight out of 10. And again, also a very difficult thing for her to navigate. Like, you know, and so positives before I get to some negatives. I love Riri as a character.

[00:17:37] I wish she was more in it. Neymar is a layered and interesting villain. I don't even really know if he is a villain. And I think pretty much all of the performances are good. Angela Bassett probably should have won the Oscar. Oh my God. But, but the negative is, and Dan, I know you'll disagree with this. That's totally fine. I think this movie is a little too long. I was not invested the whole way through. I think this is Ryan Coogler's worst movie, which isn't to say it's a bad movie. All of his other movies are slappers, right? I do think he's the Christopher Nolan of our generation. He might be.

[00:18:06] Yeah, he's literally basically our age. He's in between your age and my age. I think he just turned 40. Yeah. That's insane. I love this guy. And what I will say, and I think a lot more of this is on Marvel than on him. Beyond the, there's a couple of set pieces in this movie that are great, obviously. And I think I said, he nailed the T'Challa memorial. He nailed the Chadwick memorial, but I didn't feel his touch the whole way through this movie. And maybe just, again, I'm not saying like, you know, not inconsistent, but I just didn't feel it all the way through.

[00:18:36] I think killing Queen Ramonda, I'm going to be honest. Bold decision. And I get it, but I do feel like I didn't even remember it happened. I think it gets lost in the shuffle. And I do kind of feel bad for her at the end when Shuri is, you know, going through all the memories of her brother. And it's like, she doesn't really think about her mom at all. Angela Bassett's still alive in real life. Yeah. No, I know, but that's what I mean, right? I get what you're saying. Yeah. Yeah. Like, that's the tough part about it. Um, I, I think Shuri and Namor coming together really works for me and everything after that

[00:19:06] work just lands perfectly. I was just a skosh board for periods before, um, the T'Challa Jr. reveal though, by the way, haven't even talked about it yet is wonderful. Oh my goodness. Just wonderful kid of the year nominee, by the way. Kid of the year? Yeah. Um, the movie just could have been tighter for me, uh, but I don't really have anything bad to say about it. This is going to be low for Dan. I'll be curious where Bran ranks it. I have it dead in the middle of the pack.

[00:19:31] I have a 15th, which I, and I, I feel like it will end probably a little above middle of the pack. It's just not a movie. When I watched this movie the first time at theaters, I left the theater. I think I said this last week saying that movie was really enjoyable. I think Kugler did as good of a job as anyone could have. And I just never really thought about it after other than the, the Chadwick Boseman piece of it. And that's still kind of how I feel about it. So for me, Bran dead center in the middle. Um, and I think it will finish somewhere around there for me.

[00:19:59] Uh, yeah, I think a lot of similar thoughts on my end. I wrestled with what to do with this movie because, uh, it is almost in my mind, kind of like two separate movies. We have this like really beautiful movie about the loss of a real life human being. Um, and that was an impossible thing. And, uh, Cougs, as I call them, Cougs, yeah, figured out how to, how to make it work. And it's beautiful and it's heartbreaking.

[00:20:26] The beginning, the first half of this movie and the ending of this movie are absolutely wonderful. In the middle of this movie, you do have this thing with, uh, Namar. Is that how you say it? Namor. I think it's Namor. It's Namor. Um, no, like it's a combination of no and amor, which is no love. He explains it in the movie. Like Nomar Garcia. No, not Nomar. Okay. Namor. Nomar Garcia. Got it. Namor. Remember when he would fix his gloves?

[00:20:57] Oh, every single thing. Oh no. He'd be struck, struck out in three pitches and they wouldn't throw one. Yeah. They wouldn't get it. Pitch clock, pitch clock, pitch clock. You're out of here. Yeah. I like him as a character. I do. I did get bored underwater and I felt like at a certain point I was just watching another avatar movie, which I don't care to see ever again. And so, uh, I, it loses me a little bit with the underwater world of it all.

[00:21:23] Even though I do like him as a character, it's just like, I have, like I, I'm watching this movie about the grief of this guy. And then we have this other thing that's happening in this character that I do like as a character, but I've not really bought into it all the way. And then I get bored for a little while because of the underwater stuff. And so it gets a little, it gets a little messy for me and a little disjointed that it kind of takes me out of it. And I just kind of like, oh yeah, I remember the beginning of the movie. Uh, that was really powerful.

[00:21:53] So, um, I don't really know what to do with this movie, to be honest with you, because it is good. I agree. It is his worst movie, which is impressive to say because. It's like Creed Center's Black Panther Fruitvale Station. What are we talking about here? Like, saying this is his worst film doesn't, that is not a critique. I don't like. Yeah. No, I agree. Like, I think most everyone would have it last, but it's because the other four all could have won best picture. Pretty impressive. I agree. Pretty impressive that this is your worst movie. Yeah.

[00:22:20] Um, I have this movie currently at 19, but I could see it moving, moving, moving up, but it is, it is just the, to me, it felt disjointed and I, I lost interest halfway through and then found interest at the battle. So I think the battle stuff really works. Um, so, you know, it gets, it gets me back, but it's just kind of like, it's like a, it's like a hoop. And then the middle, the middle dip here, uh, dips me and I don't really know how, how hard to strike it. So right now it's at 19.

[00:22:50] Dano? Yeah. So I have a lot to say, as you can imagine, and it's hard to kind of organize those thoughts. I think, um, you know, for me, a degree of difficulty and movie making, uh, kind of quality and panache are very, very important. And so I can't look at this movie and compare it to a, I'll just look at my list where like you have it at 19. So like I have Thor at 19, a very well-made movie where the degree of difficulty is like a two of 10. 100%.

[00:23:18] And so for what I had to realize, this is my third or fourth time watching this movie. What I had to realize and be willing to give is that there are some people who want to go and watch a Marvel movie and this isn't one. Um, and if you want to go into the theater and feel like you're getting an audio visual

[00:23:42] massage and forget everyday life, then this movie is not going to hit for you because it is an impossible task. It is a feat, a daring feat, the likes of which we've not seen in the MCU in 30 films. This degree of difficulty, every other movie's degree of difficulty pales in comparison to this one. Um, there were two paths that, that the MCU Disney could have taken after the death of

[00:24:12] Chadwick Boseman. One is to recast. The other is to shelve Black Panther. Those are the two things that happen when the main character dies. You shelve it or you recast it. That, those are the only two viable options for the studio to make money, to not offend anybody, to honor people and what they did and their process. And you're right, right guy. If they had recast Black Panther would have been a disaster.

[00:24:38] Everyone would have just been thinking about, and you know, this is closer for as somebody who grew, I know I didn't know Chadwick Boseman, but I like to feel like I, you know, did because he grew up so close. He's a pride of our state, the upstate of South Carolina. And, you know, I had, I spent weekends out in Belton, Huntington, Path fairly regularly with a dear friend of mine who lived out there. And like this guy grew up near where I grew up.

[00:25:03] And he was also an immensely talented individual who was just starting to show everyone what he was capable of and then was incredibly sacrificial in continuing to work instead of telling people that he was sick all the way to the end. So you shouldn't make this movie. You know, that, that is the thing is you shouldn't make this movie. And Ryan Cougar decides, no, we can make this movie. We can make a Black Panther movie and we can honor the death of Chala. His dad also died.

[00:25:32] It seems like Black Panther dies from time to time. We showed, we've already shown one Black Panther die. Showing another die is totally fine. And we can make a movie that thematically continues the journey of the first Black Panther. And we can honor Chadwick Boseman without doing Princess Leia and Last Jedi, without doing de-aging, without doing AI. We can do this and make something that is still cinematically excellent.

[00:26:00] So I don't know who would take on that task aside from Ryan Cougar. The, the, the underwater scenes in this movie are so good because he filmed them all underwater and had everyone mouth their dialogue and then record the ADR afterwards and learn breathwork. The, the underwater scenes are so good that they look fake. That's how good they are. They're practical. Aside from the writing on whales, that's digitally enhanced, but none of it is CGI, right?

[00:26:25] So like that, that is so incredibly impressive, but it pales in comparison to him making a movie of this magnitude and of this much grandeur that if you want a Marvel movie movie that you don't have to think about real life and connects you to the bigger story of post Thanos Infinity War, this would be low in your rankings. And I have to give that. That's not how I do things. And that's not how I watch movies. When I saw this movie, it was top three for me. It was Black Panther, it was Iron Man, it was Wakanda forever.

[00:26:54] Um, in viewing it for the fourth time, uh, the, the only thing that's changed for me is how much better Infinity War and Endgame were than I remembered them being and seeing them in the theater. Um, this movie, uh, the first movie takes on this theme of what if after all of Africa was colonized by Europeans and all of Africans were taken into bondage and slavery?

[00:27:19] What if there was a sliver of Africa that remained the most powerful place on the earth? And what if the power and responsibility shifted to Wakanda and how would they act in that case? And how do they interact with a world that hates them even though they have more power? This movie takes the idea of grief and explores it through the, the POV of four women and one ancient Mayan man, right?

[00:27:47] So like the Tenoch Huerta is his name. He speaks Yucatec Mayan, which is the ancient dialect of the Yucatan Peninsula before it was colonized by Europeans, right? So what if we take someone who's never gotten over their grief and they are rightfully, righteously angry about the fact that their family and their civilization has been literally

[00:28:12] buried underwater in, in exchange for greed, gold, God, all of these things that the Europeans brought with them. Um, and what if we juxtapose that with Letitia Wright's character, Shuri, who is trying to process the grief of her, of her brother and then her mom and really still her dad and refuses to do so. And what happens when the anger of this 500 year old colonization thing meets the anger

[00:28:40] of a woman who is refusing to acknowledge that law, that the loss is personal and reflective of her own life. Good God. How did we do this in a Marvel movie? And how does it come to a head so beautifully? I think the character of Namor is unreal. I think what they do with showing that entire world is unbelievable. I have so many feels from this movie. The way that everything is, is balanced is incredible.

[00:29:08] Do I understand how you would think it's too long, long, long, or maybe like too jam packed? Yeah, I do. I disagree, but I, I do think that unlike Black Panther, which is undeniable in the fact that it is both a popcorn movie for everyone and also a very important piece of, of pop culture and growth and strength for a certain population that has been underrepresented.

[00:29:34] This movie is definitely more polarizing, but boy, would I rather watch a two hour, 40 minute exploration of grief through cultures and genders. We don't get represented enough that I would watch another Thor. And so for me, that is not to denigrate those who just want to go and see two hours of comic book characters kicking butt. But for me, this movie elevates an otherwise stale genre, 30 movies in, and it does so at

[00:30:03] the highest degree possible. That is very impressive. Now in rewatching it for the fourth time, it was not as impressive as what Endgame and Infinity War did. So I did move it down to five. I have it at fifth. Black Panther, Iron Man, Endgame, Infinity War, Wakanda forever at five. That's what I got. It's time for the feels. That's where we're talking about what. You guys get a good break there? Get some water? Yeah. You're you're all right, Brian? Yeah. I took a big swig, right? And I thought I thought I didn't. So I was just getting going. I didn't. I know.

[00:30:33] I know we're unsophisticated bums, but you don't. That's not what I was. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Rye guy. Feels. Yeah. The Namor Shuri. Listen, the obvious answer here is like really anything is anything related to Chadwick or anything Angela Bassett does. But to go off the board, the Namor Shuri bartering scene feels to Dan, to your point, feels distinctly unique to the MCU.

[00:31:00] Like, I really don't think you can call Namor a villain. Like, you know, it's and I like that. I think the movie is a skosh too long, but I like that they give time for perspectives to be explored. And it isn't the MCU has done this trick a few times where it's like, oh, and people say this about Thanos all the time. Oh, he has a point and we're going to explain his point of view. And like, you know, but this is different. Like, this is actually like fully fleshing out and fully articulating how this character

[00:31:29] feels, sees the world and really isn't a bad guy. Just like Killmonger. I think both you can really do a comparison contrast with Killmonger. Ryan Coogler is creating villains that aren't that are angry, righteously angry. And maybe their actions are pretty terrible, but their reasoning and their anger is righteous. Yeah. Yeah. And this one in particular, because obviously Killmonger is always played with a harsh edge intentionally. Yeah.

[00:31:56] I think you could watch those first couple of scenes between Shuri and Namor and go, oh, I want them to get, I want them to link up. Like, you know, that's like. I think Tana Huerta is incredible in this movie. Yeah. Unbelievable. And so again, that's an off the board answer. The obvious stuff is the obvious stuff. But I did really like that aspect of the film, even though maybe that section, you know, maybe 75% of the way through wasn't always grabbing me, Brent.

[00:32:22] So obviously Chadwick is a generational talent and is impossible to try to replace. I think, I think Shuri Latina Wright is incredible. She's unreal. And I really, I really liked her. I thought she did a good job. I really liked her in the first movie. Right. And I was like, I would like to see more of her.

[00:32:42] This was such a insane ask of this individual to go in after the loss of, I'm assuming, a real life friend. I'm sure that they were friends in real life. Right. Hey, you're going to have to carry this movie. Impossible. And I think that she did a phenomenal job. And the fact that she's not getting a ton of roles after this movie is wild. Because I think that she's phenomenal.

[00:33:11] I thought she was phenomenal after the first movie. I thought that she was really good in the little bits and pieces that we get to see of her. I think she's amazing in this movie. And I don't, like, I know that there is going to be another Black Panther. And there actually is also going to be another Black Panther. And so, you know, what that looks like, we'll see how it goes. I'm sure Cougs will do a fine job. But I thought she crushed it. I, and the fact that they, when they announced David Johnson, great casting, hate it.

[00:33:39] Because I want to see, I want to see her as Black Panther from now on. I think there might be space for both of them. I don't know. Or maybe she's just doomed in doomsday. I do think, like, they obviously did a thing here where she, it seems as if she did this for this moment. I will become Black Panther for this moment for my people. Yeah. And it's not like she had an aspiration to be Black Panther. Shuri was not, like, obviously jumping at, jumping like, I need, it's my turn.

[00:34:08] I'm next in line. Yes. Like, she didn't want to do it. And so she did do it. And I think she, I do think that they set it up in this movie to obviously be like, this is not my thing forever. That's right. David Johnson can act his butt off. David Johnson's great. Right. I just think what a cool, like, new female superhero who, and I thought she crushed it. Yeah. And I, you know, obviously controversy with her during COVID.

[00:34:32] And I think we talked about this earlier and we don't have to get into it, but it is unfortunate we've not seen more Letitia Wright because I think she's quite a talent. I hope she's still not being, like, phased out because of that. I would hope not. I mean, not diminishing it, not accepting it, but it's just six years ago. Like, you know, it wasn't like she, you know, like, did some, like, unthinkable time. I think we've been very inconclusive. Not that there was any controversy. I think we've been very inconsistent with how we've treated folks like that moving forward.

[00:35:00] Regardless of how I feel about it, and I have very strong feelings, I think since then, I think we've been very inconsistent on how we've treated them in general. Yeah, so I have a bunch. I would say that the opening funeral sequence in this movie is one of the more accomplished scenes in the MCU.

[00:35:24] The all real background actors as they march through the drums, the picture of Chala on the board back there, the casket with the arms crossed. One of the more incredible pieces of filmmaking I've seen from a Marvel movie ever. And then you go to the all purple, completely silent Marvel Studios, just Chadwick Boseman montage.

[00:35:53] Perfect. Pitch perfect. Lupita Nyong'o is the unsung hero of this movie. Talk about someone that should be getting more work. Academy Award winner Lupita Nyong'o, who's in The Odyssey. In this movie, she speaks four languages. Now, I don't know if she's fluent in those four languages, but man, she sounds fluent. She speaks English, the African language Xochitl, which is the language they use for Wakandan.

[00:36:20] She speaks Haitian, which is a very specific French. It's like French, but French-ish dialect. And she speaks Spanish. And she navigates all four of those seamlessly. She's so good in a role that is pretty thankless in this movie. And I think she's unbelievable. So is Winston Duke, by the way. He should just be in everything. He's so good. But let's talk about Angela Bassett, shall we? I just...

[00:36:49] Her performance in this movie might have been the performance of the year. I don't remember the other performances in any other category. And this is fresh in my mind. The scene at the UN. The scene at the funeral. All of them. But, guys, for my money, maybe most chills I've ever had watching a Marvel movie. One of my favorite moments in all of the Marvel movies is Black Panther 1. Uh, Chala is getting his butt kicked by Winston Duke, M'Baku. And he's like down... It looks to be down for the count.

[00:37:19] And you see Angela Bassett, like very strong mother, just scream, show him who... Show them who you are. Like that. And all of a sudden, he's like, all right. And it's so cool. Like, it's like watching Creed at that moment. It's like this great moment. The 11th round of Creed where Michael B. rises up. Yes. Leticia Wright as Shuri, as Black Panther. I want to murder this dude at all costs. I want to murder this 500-year-old man who has killed my mother.

[00:37:47] I have knife to neck. It's about to happen. She closes her eyes. And Angela Bassett, from the grave, show him who you are. Come on. That is all I want as a parent, is for my kids to be wrong, wrong, wrong until they realize how to be right. That is all I want. And to see her grow up and to do it right. Oh, my goodness. So, so good. Amazing. Perfect. 10 of 10. No notes. All right. Let's take a break. We'll come back.

[00:38:16] We'll get to the, I think, overwhelming amount of Weight Watch. And what about we're here on? Deck the Hallmark. Hi, everybody. Welcome back. Hi, everybody. Welcome back. Hi, everybody. Welcome back. Hi, everybody. Welcome back. Thank you. It's time for the Weight Watch. So we're talking about what this movie makes the Weight Watch. Right, guy? Yeah, I only have two.

[00:38:45] And the first one's really more of like Ryan Coogler being ahead of the curve on AI in this movie is really impressive. It's not even really a Weight Watch. But both like it being a thing and both everyone thinking it's going to kill us all. So that guy's just good at everything, including the stuff that's going to kill us all. Mm-hmm. And then so my only actual one is the cop at one point. I believe this is the bridge sequence. He goes, Namor's, you know, they're all out there. And he goes, hey, is she blue?

[00:39:14] Which is a perfectly cute line. I mean, but it's always odd to me that civilians are still surprised that there's like these supernatural beings. This far in. What are we doing? Also, in this particular case, just a few years ago, half of humanity was disappeared because of a blue, a purple guy. Like, I mean, like, so I don't think, you know, I don't think like colors of the rainbow like creatures popping up should be of surprise anymore. And Avatar was probably in the theaters. You know what I mean? Like there's so many different reasons they should not be.

[00:39:44] Yeah. Like, I mean, yeah, yeah. He's blue. Yeah. Oh, there's another blue guy. Yeah. Yeah. That's it for me, Bran. And at the battle sequence, there was a pretty wild, like clearly 80 yard line when they go underwater. It sounds completely different.

[00:40:07] And it's the only thing in this movie that made me go, oh, yeah, this like this was still like a weird time with COVID when this movie was being made. And I think that it but it literally sounded like a complete like even different than the other underwater scenes. Oh, okay. It just like it was clearly a different setup. And it was just very interesting to me. What line was it? It was, I got you, sis. Come on. Okay. Yeah. It just sat like completely different than the rest of this movie sounded. And just found that to be fascinating.

[00:40:37] I also, Riri to me is such an interesting character. She's awesome. Yeah. Right? Riri to me. Creates this crazy tech. Has like a Black Panther suit. An Iron Man suit. An Iron Man suit. It's a great line in this movie. Sorry, an Iron Man suit. Like, I wonder, like, did anybody just be like, hey, like, I know she obviously, I guess, wants to go back to MIT or whatever and do her thing. But like, maybe Riri should be the next Black Panther. I mean. I would have. There was a moment when I watched this the first time. I was like, oh, maybe that's where they're going. Me too. That was the thing.

[00:41:07] Nobody really knew it was Letitia Wright for sure. They never confirmed it. Correct. Right. But it's like, you know, if Shuri doesn't want to do it, you got this, like, awesome, awesome character. You got, like, who's creating crazy tech, who's creating superhero suits. Like, no one thought to be like, hey, before you go back to MIT, can I just. Have you ever thought about a career in superhero? Can I throw this out to you?

[00:41:34] Have I got a heart-shaped herb with your name on it? We got an ASVAB. We got your ASVAB results back. It turns out you're a superhero. You're a superhero. You know, I got an MIT? Get out of here. Data? Yeah, I only have two. One is, what in the blue blazes is a Wakandan outreach center? Like, and maybe they established at the end of Black Panther and I missed it, but Wakanda, like, notoriously not about outreach.

[00:42:01] Like, but they have these centers outside of Wakanda with vibranium in them. What did I miss? And I'm sure some Marvel nerds going to tell me, but like, it seems like an oxymoron to have a Wakandan outreach center. The whole thing is nobody knows. Everybody thinks it's just an African village. Nobody knows how incredibly advanced they are and how powerful they are. What is it? So they do explain it.

[00:42:29] At the end of the movie, they open up the first outreach center in Oakland where all that happened. Right. And it's just to help. Yeah. It doesn't have vibranium. It doesn't have vibranium. So this outreach center is in the ocean with vibranium. They've expanded quickly. Why? Who are they helping out there in the ocean? I mean, like, that's a legit, wait, what, right? Yeah. I mean, it might have vibranium, but they have to be the ones to control it. Yeah. It just seems like we don't want to, we want to be able to use it to help the world, but you wish

[00:42:58] I thought that was, you're 100% right. In my head, that wasn't the same as what this was, but they're called the same thing. They're called the same thing. Boy, they went from Oakland, California, helping the inner city kids to the middle of the ocean. Please don't steal our vibranium. Maybe a misstep. Maybe a misstep. It was like Discovery Zone in the 90s. They crushed it. That's right. And then all of a sudden. Yeah. Got away from them. Got away from them.

[00:43:22] And then also, I understand the underwater people have the Telecon or Telecon, I believe, having like. I don't know. We didn't even know how to say Namor. The man's over here looking at me. Telecon, maybe. I understand their ability underwater. I understand once they're above water, they have to wear masks and are basically regular strength human beings. How did they get all of that heavy machinery on dry land in Wakanda?

[00:43:52] I mean, like. Not planning. It's not like. Namor appears he can maybe lift a few hundred pounds, but they never show him like lifting buildings or anything like Superman. Right. He can fly and he's strong and he's kind of invincible until he runs out of water on his skin. But he doesn't have super strength. Not that they've established. But we see that the Telecon have placed all of these. I don't know. They're they're. The tonnage is crazy. Like it's thousands and tens of thousands of pounds that they've put on dry land.

[00:44:21] And I don't know how they did it. And I'd love to know. Yeah, I don't. By the way, off topic, I don't really like Namor's chances against Doom coming up. No, I don't. Seems like it seems like it seems like an uphill battle for old Namor coming up here. But I don't know if Namor will be. I don't know if Namor will be in it. I think that the trailer he is. I've not watched the trailer. Namor is in the trailer. He's in the trailer. That's exciting. I know. It's cool. It's cool addition. I just don't know how.

[00:44:50] I don't know how he's going to fare. Dude. Yeah. I got a lot of Marvel. Just throwing it away, though. Yeah. No, I didn't know that. Just look at what I got, brother. Coogler wanted to do Namor for Black Panther 2 before Chadwick Boseman's death, but then changed the character quite a bit from the comics to kind of make it work for Wakanda forever. That's the way I understand it anyway. So fascinating that he's in there. I'm thrilled we're going to see more of him. Yeah. Namor, in fact. Yeah. Namor. All right.

[00:45:19] Let's get to what a Marvel. Questions we have for the future. Predictions even. Whatever we want to do here. It's a catch-all. Right, guy? Yeah. So here's what I would have done. So again, I think Letitia Wright does a really, really good job. And I think it was probably, to Dan's point, the only creative choice you could have made with the obvious pieces they had at their disposal. I'm curious if this was even batted around because a version of this, although not remotely what I'm saying, does end up happening in the film.

[00:45:45] In a multiverse situation, which we are in, I think there was a way. So the toughest thing this movie has to do is, again, the Chadwick Boseman of it all. It's like, who could replace Chadwick Boseman? I see what you're saying right now. Yeah, I see where you're going. I would have had either a multiverse, Michael B. Jordan, and whether he is T'Challa, his

[00:46:09] name is T'Challa from a different universe, or just a nicer, slightly nicer, redeemable version of Killmonger from another universe. That's a totally different movie than the movie we get, right? I mean, he was redeemed at the end of the first one. Yeah, but you've got to think that he at least thought about Michael B. Jordan. I will say that it would... Because they had a real-life relationship, him and Chadwick. Obviously, they're intrinsically linked after the first Black Panther. Michael B. Jordan is in every Ryan Coogler movie. Every one.

[00:46:39] Often stars in them. Yes. And he's great in this little scene here. But the other tough thing, we talked about this during Black Panther 1, and sorry, I know this is a tangent, but the reason why Cap and Iron Man can exit at Endgame is because we had Chadwick Boseman to be the face of the MCU. That's right. The only person... No offense to Letitia Wright. No. But Michael B. Jordan, the hefty price tag, could have been the face of the MCU.

[00:47:07] So I'm just curious if they talked about it. That's what I would have done. I think the betting odds would be severely in favor of the fact that Coogler probably asked him and he said he didn't want to do it. Jordan strikes me as a guy that likes to have... Based upon just listening to podcast interviews with Coogler and Jordan, they like to do new and different things. And Coogler being tied to phase 83 of the Marvel Cinematic Universe probably wasn't something that seems like...

[00:47:37] It seemed like too much of an easy... I think that's what it is. He doesn't want to be in Coogler's day. Also, the same thing that I said about that crazy thing, he was very close to Boseman. So that's right afterwards. Do you want to follow in the footsteps and carry the mantle? No, honestly, I do not want to do that. For the record, I would have leaned more towards in this scenario where this happens. I would have more leaned towards him being a different version of Killmonger than just someone named T'Challa.

[00:48:07] But there's no rules with this multiverse stuff. You can really do whatever you want. I'm thrilled Black Panther has steered clear of the multiverse. I'm thrilled that that's not a part of those two movies. I think it's very hard to make a good multiverse movie. That's why No Way Home is so impressive, ending notwithstanding. It's because No Way Home is a great multiverse movie, and the two end of the Spider-Verse movies are perfect. And I don't... Still, there's something that either works in those movies or doesn't, and more often

[00:48:37] than not, it doesn't. But those three have gotten it right, and I'm thrilled that we didn't try it with Black Panther. Yeah, but again, this is a... You still obviously have to and want to pay tribute to the character and Chadwick the person. The movie I'm suggesting is a completely different movie to Dan's point. A tough one to make. But I'm just curious if they talked about it. I would guess that they did. It's a good one. Good one of Marvel. I have two really quickly. One, we did talk about Lil' T'Challa and how he might be kid of the year. Kid of the year.

[00:49:05] Let's go ahead and do the ranking really quick. Where does he... Is he top tier? He's top tier. He's the ballot. For kid of the year or for MCU kid? No, for all of our kid rankings. I mean... Let's dust those back out. Let's not. Let's dust out the kid ranking. Are we putting him top tier? Who are we knocking down? I mean, he doesn't... Should we save this? He only has to deliver the most important line of the movie. I'm Prince T'Challa. And he delivers it perfectly. So better than... What's his name from Sandlot? Yes. Wow.

[00:49:35] You're putting him number one overall. That's not even a question. That's not even a question. So you have to put him number one overall. I mean, for what he has to... Those movies we watched were so inconsequential in the 90s. For what he has to do here... I mean, if Charlie doesn't triple deke, everybody still lives. There's no way to know that. Joey the Cat just gets shot by a sniper when Charlie... Hans. Hans. Who knows what his past is, brother? But yeah, this kid is either just...

[00:50:03] Ryan Coogler either just gave him the greatest direction of all time, or this kid just has a natural presence. Because every time they went in tight on him, I'm like, oh, this kid understands the gravity of the moment. Yeah. Like, he's crushing this very important scene. And then really quick, this information might be out there, but obviously we do know that there's going to be another Black Panther. Are we going to be introduced to this new Black Panther in the same way that we were introduced to T'Challa? T'Challa. T'Challa. In a... In a Civil War. In a... Yeah, another... Like, we have Doomsday coming up. We got...

[00:50:32] They did it with Spider-Man in Civil War 2. Right. So we got Doomsday coming up, and then we got whatever... Secret Wars. Secret Wars. Will we get the new Black Panther introduced in those movies? Or will... I guess no. But I also think... Don't quote me on this. I don't know if they made this clear. I think he's just playing... There might be a time jump. I think he might just be playing a grown-up version of T'Challa Jr. Oh, interesting. Yeah, I think he's... Okay. I think he's supposed to be that kid grown-up. Okay. Yeah. Very cool. I believe after...

[00:51:02] I don't know how it works, but I believe after Secret Wars, it's very possible that there's a big time jump, and then he can just be an adult. Got it. Very good. All right. Dan? Yeah. Real quick, I know that Ryan Coogerman made Sinner is one of the best movies I've ever seen, which was a Trojan horse horror movie that actually is about the blues and about music and about the history of our country and all that great stuff. I actually... I know that we don't have time for this because Ryan Coogler, Chris Nolan, guys like that are

[00:51:31] only going to live 50 years and they end up finding projects that require way more work. I would love to see Ryan Coogerman make a genre horror movie. Like, watching some of the water stuff, I think he would just absolutely be unbelievable at it, and I'd love to see it. We're never going to get it. But my bigger one is, is Ryan Coogler single-handedly trying to reclaim the mid-credits scene?

[00:51:57] His last two movies, the mid-credits scene, is the most important scene in the movie. Like, which, when I saw Sinners the first time and I saw it, I kind of didn't know if I liked it or not because I was like, that movie's perfect. And then the tag isn't a tag. It's further development. It is the theme of the movie, and it is important for you to know as you take that movie as a whole. Why not put it in the real movie?

[00:52:24] But the longer I've sat with it and I've seen Sinners four or five times, I really love it as a tag because Buddy Guy is an actual blues guitarist. Really, really great scene. This movie, by all accounts, should end with the kid of the year saying, I'm Prince T'Challa. Now, Ryan Coogler wants to honor Chadwick Boseman, so he does the quick montage, and then he has a beautiful ending. Without that scene, this movie is just as good, which is crazy. The tears rolling down Shuri's face as the fire burns.

[00:52:54] Perfect ending. And then he comes back, haymaker, with the best scene in the movie. Kid of the year. Kid of the year. And so, after doing it, I understood why he did Wakanda Forever. How do you kind of juggle everything? After doing Sinners, I'm like, is he just trying a thing? Is he trying to reclaim the mid-credits scene as part of the movie? Which is a wild thing for him to do, but if he does it one more time, we've got a pattern. He's got it at that point. Yeah, he's got it.

[00:53:24] So that was kind of weird. It's just his brand at that point. All right, next week, same vibe. Ant-Man and the Wasp Quantumania. Oh yeah, for sure. So come on back for that, I guess. Until then, we first wish you a Merry Christmas! Deck the Hallmark is a Bramble Jam podcast produced by Brandon Gray. And yeah, that's Greenville, South Carolina. For more information on the show, go to deckthehallmark.com. Follow us on the socials at deckthehallmark. Leave us a five-star rating and review on Apple Podcasts to help others find the show. And help the show out financially. Go to bramblejamplus.com.

[00:53:54] Become a double-decker. Get the best corner of the internet. Ad-free podcasting, live video watch-alonged, movie chats, and so much more. That's bramblejamplus.com. You're about to hear some ads that help keep the lights on here in the old studio. Thanks for listening, or don't listen. It's really up to you at this point. It's at the end of the show. I mean, you're listening to me. Hi. But here they come. I promise they're coming. Yep, here they are.

[00:54:24] Happy day.