Ken Cuperus Interview (Creator; Mistletoe Murders)

[00:00:03] This is a Bramble Jam Podcast. Hi, I'm Brandon. I love Hallmark movies. I'm Dan and I despise Hallmark movies. And I'm Ken Cuperus and I write Hallmark movies disguised as Hallmark TV shows. And this is the Deck The Hallmark Podcast. Deck The Hallmark, it's this podcast. Friends host this podcast.

[00:00:31] Hope you like this jolly podcast. Oh, damn. Oh, and that song sounds even better today because it's halfway to Christmas. Whatever, man. This is a made up thing that you've done. It's not a made up thing. No, no, no. Someone made it up. Someone June 25th. June 25th. Summer started four days ago. But you're not hearing what I'm saying.

[00:01:00] June 25th, regardless of if you want to make it a thing, it is halfway to Christmas. Correct, it is. Every day is halfway to the other side of the calendar. Yes, you're exactly right. I like that our boy Ken here understood what he was getting into and clearly listened to me complaining that these were TV shows. Yes. Yes. He's ahead of the game here. And now he's got to hear you talk about how today's special. Well, it was a perfect excuse to get Ken on the show, who is the creator of Mistletoe Murders,

[00:01:30] because as we're halfway to Christmas, might as well talk about Mistletoe Murders, which I believe season three is filming now. It is. I'm sitting in the trailer on the set right now. Wow. So what better? And before we started, he told us everything. He told us everything. He told us everything that was going to happen. And I just was great. It's really cool. We know everything that is going to happen. It's awesome. Aliens in season three. It's unbelievable. It's crazy. They're going to Aliens in season three. I'm mad it took this long. Ken, before we get to Mistletoe Murders, because we're going to talk about it,

[00:01:59] we're going to dive into it, because it's such an interesting story starting from a book and now heading into season three. I'd love to hear how you kind of got into this business to begin with. So whatever you want to share, where were you born and kind of how did you get into writing to begin with? Yeah, I grew up in Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada. And I was into the comedy scene in my early 20s.

[00:02:28] So I was doing stand up and sketch comedy. I was part of a sketch comedy troupe that was, you know, regional, but very popular. What was it called? It was called the Brave New Weasels. The Brave New Weasels. We talk about them often. Brave New Weasels. I assume you were big like SCTV guy. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I grew up watching SCTV, Monty Python, Kids in the Hall. Yeah. All of those.

[00:02:54] I mean, I grew up in the 80s into the 90s. So when we were doing comedy, sketch comedy, there was no YouTube. There was no Internet. You know, so it was much harder to get attention back then. But we did what any self-respecting comedy troupe would do. We moved to Toronto. Yeah. And, you know, we had some great success there. Worked out of the...

[00:03:19] We didn't do shows with Second City, but we did shows in the Second City theater. And from there, I kind of stumbled into working at a studio called Nalvana that was an animation studio. And I just wrote cartoons for like two or three years. Just hundreds of cartoons. Yeah. Your IMDB says so. Yeah. You are just loaded up. Now, I do have one question before you move any further, which is your IMDB says you wrote

[00:03:49] for the original Berenstain Bears in 1985. And I'm looking at you right now and I don't... Either you have found the fountain of youth and you were old enough to write on that television program or, spoiler alert, IMDB may have made a mistake. Yeah. It's not the original Berenstain Bears. It was the show that they made in, I think, around 2000, 2001. I'm not sure why it would say 1985. Definitely not that one. Yeah.

[00:04:19] You'll have to contact Mr. IMDB and make sure you correct that. That's right. I did write several episodes of that version. What was... Is the entry point into writing cartoons, like, is that a tough barrier to... It seems like a very specific type of writing. Like, you're writing for cartoons, which are going to be viewed by kids and there's... But there's also kind of a wide spectrum of type of cartoons, whether they're made for

[00:04:49] little, little kids, whether they're made for kids that are kind of too cool for school. Like, what was the learning curve, I guess, for you when it came to writing for cartoons? I mean, it was... So the first thing I wrote for Nelvana was actually a prime time half hour comedy called John Callahan's Quads. And so that was kind of a raunchy sort of like Australian show.

[00:05:16] And from there, I got hired into the company, at which point I was a staff writer. And that's when I started writing preschool and youth and kids and all that. And, you know, I still say... And I've written for every genre of television now. And I still say preschool is the hardest thing to write. Huh. You have so many people looking at what you're writing to make sure that it's, you know, educational, but still funny, but appropriate.

[00:05:45] You know, it goes through moms groups, it goes through educators. It is a very challenging thing to get right. And so, luckily, I started there. So when I moved into every other aspect of television, I found it very easy. Wow. That's fascinating. Ken, based on your IMDB, not including the 1985 Berenstain Bears, you want to take a guess how many different animated programs you have credits for? How many different...

[00:06:15] So not how many episodes. I mean, I wrote so many that just never showed up there because there's shows that just disappeared. But I'm going to guess roughly 25. 29. 29. Pretty close. Pretty close. That's a lot. And those are just the ones that got to air. So you're telling me there's way more than that. Yeah. And I wrote probably eight or 10 episodes of each of them. So...

[00:06:38] But can you remember, like, if I were like, hey, what was the difference between Die Gata, Defenders, Carl Squared, Klang Invasion, and Urban Vermin? Like, could you, like, wax poetic about those? Or is it all one big mush now? No, I actually... Those are very, all very specific shows. All different genres. Urban Vermin, for example, was sort of a SpongeBob silly show. So, so was Klang Invasion, but that was... Those were...

[00:07:06] Urban Vermin was a half hour series. Klang Invasion was two 15 minutes per episode. Sure. Yeah. Yeah, no, I remember them all very clearly. I love it. Nothing there that I don't remember writing or that has, you know, sort of been lost in the void. It's interesting that this is all with the same studio. Yes. Like, they're all pumping these out. How did that work? Was it, like, were you, you were employed by them? Were you salary? It didn't matter how much you wrote.

[00:07:35] They just kind of threw you in this writer's room for a day, this writer's room for a day, and however it came out, it came out. You weren't getting paid depending on the amount of episodes or shows? Yeah. So, well, first of all, there was no writing rooms. Like, you're just, you're just kind of, you pitch your idea to the showrunner who is part of that pool. But it was an in-house writing staff, which is something that doesn't really happen anymore. Yeah, it was interesting. That was sort of part of the last generation of that.

[00:08:02] But basically what it was is you got a salary, but then you got, so you couldn't make less than a certain amount. But the more you wrote, you would get the payments for those scripts as well. So eventually you could make as much money as you wrote shows, but you couldn't make less than a certain amount. Interesting. So, you know, your IMDb, you know, filmography becomes a lot more varied after that just sudden burst of cartoons.

[00:08:31] You also developed a show, Hudson and Rex, for TV, seven seasons at this point-ish, 117 episodes. Mystery there, Mistletoe Murders, obviously. The audio book, Middle Bridge Mysteries. There's a lot here that we could get into. When you are watching television now and movies now, how hard is it to not just notice the writing?

[00:08:54] Like now that you've kind of spanned all these genres, like when you watch, is it annoying or are you, does that really, is that really what makes something great for you as just a consumer of culture? I mean, that's exactly it. Like, you know, I can recognize, I can recognize good shows by the quality of the writing. And interestingly enough, the shows I gravitate towards aren't always the best writing. They're mostly just the best, you know, cinematography or the best directing.

[00:09:23] Because, yeah, writing, like, especially mysteries, like, it's very hard for me to watch a mystery and not be like, this person did it within the first three minutes. Just based on what I know about, like, how you have to set up certain things in the first act. Well, I, and I, I, that's a, I was going to be my followup, which is, you know, a lot of my complaint with a lot of Hallmark Mysteries that are standalone, not mistletoe murders per se, for the most part.

[00:09:50] In fact, I don't, I can't remember a single time where I would have this complaint about mistletoe murders, but it is 80 minutes and they have to tell you instead of show you so often. And they have to bring out a parade of red herrings and they have to explicitly tell you why this person could have done it. And they have to do that all in the first 25 to 30 minutes so that you can put your board together.

[00:10:15] And I just feel like that takes all of, like, thinking about the great mysteries that you can read or watch or Agatha Christie or whatever. That seems very organic and natural. Whereas a lot of times in an 80 minute TV movie with some content restraints, it seems very forced and not normal, not how normal people would behave.

[00:10:36] Like, is this something that you are like actively writing against, or is this something you have to find a way to be creative for within the medium that you know that you're like, those are the fence posts and you've got to find a way to be creative in that. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of nuance to that question.

[00:10:51] So I'll start with the idea that a lot of mysteries are written by non-mystery writers who just think they need to introduce somebody and then show who the killer is at the end. And they don't go through the process of creating the impossible crime and then having five suspects, all of who could have done it. Yeah.

[00:11:17] And like, because that's how you bury a killer is like having five people who could be the killer. Um, that's the easiest way to like, not be able to figure things out. Um, is, and the funny thing about mysteries is like when people watch a mystery, they'll often identify somebody early on and go, that's the killer. Because they're just guessing based on the five people. Right. Yeah. And then at the end, if that is the killer, they go, well, that was too easy.

[00:11:46] Cause I guess the killer 20% chance you got it. Right. Exactly. There's always, there's always 20 to 25% of people who are like, well, I guessed it. So it must've been too easy. But there's, you know, it's like you're, you really are just guessing at that point because any of those people I could have made the killer at the end and let you know the same amount of people would have guessed. You just spun the wheel and got it right.

[00:12:09] But the other thing I'll say is that, um, you know, we're doing our mystery specifically for Hallmark has to serve, uh, more than just sort of a mystery audience. We're also sort of serving the romantic comedy audience. We also have a backstory.

[00:12:25] So, you know, the thriller, the, uh, uh, the mythology audience, it's, uh, it's a little harder to, I never feel like I have enough space to, to really kind of present a, the mystery that I would be able to tell if I didn't have to do all that other stuff as well. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but, but I, you know, not that's, I don't want to sound like that's a complaint cause it's really rewarding to do that.

[00:12:52] I think to your point though, you're like most people, you know, a lot of people that write these mysteries aren't mystery writers. And it seems like they hired the ROM, they would hire a rom-com writer and just tag a mystery on. Whereas with you, you've written a mystery and then the other stuff comes naturally because you've got Sarah drew who is so capable at making all of that stuff sing. And, you know, and the rest of the cast.

[00:13:13] And so that may have been the, the thing that unlocked it is why don't we hire a guy that writes mysteries, uh, to do this instead of trying to square peg round hole, a rom-com into a mystery. So that makes a lot of sense to me. Yeah. And I'll tell you that the genesis of like this being like a mystery over two episodes, and it was the same for the podcast is that, um, because we had to do all this other stuff, we needed the sort of the fun and the romance and the backstory.

[00:13:43] There just wasn't enough time to tell a satisfying mystery within the confines of 41 minutes. So that is where I really pushed on the TV show side for Hallmark to have a mystery go over two episodes and then have an arc that goes over the, the, all, all six of them. That makes sense. That makes sense. Uh, just backpiling really quickly. I do want to know how you, what was the exit ramp for you for doing, you were in this, uh, studio.

[00:14:13] Writing for cartoons like crazy. And then at some point you start doing different stuff and you end up coming up with your own ideas. What, where did that, uh, when did that happen for you? And what, what was that kind of, uh, story like for you to take that leap from writing cartoons for studio to kind of doing your own thing and doing things that you're passionate about? Yeah. I mean, I never really strove to be, uh, uh, an animation writer, although I loved it and really enjoyed it.

[00:14:42] The whole, the whole time I was doing it. Um, it wasn't sort of where I had seen myself. And so, uh, my agent was like, you know, all my, all my clients sort of, sort of get an opportunity to have a, uh, a meeting with the showrunners of Stargate. Because, um, he also shared a client who was on the Stargate staff. And so he said, like, if you have any ideas for Stargate, uh, I can get you a meeting.

[00:15:11] And I said, oh, sure. Well, you know, why not? Like, I'll, I'll take that. Sounds like a good perk. Um, sure. So I got my meeting, uh, a phone meeting with the Stargate folks and I pitched some stories and they ended up buying one. And I ended up on the staff of Stargate Atlantis for a year. So that, that really, and I had never written a one hour before ever.

[00:15:34] Like, so, uh, I, you know, I, I walked into that writing that show, like it was a cartoon, which was like, they're like, you know, you have to have, you have to have like people having conversations. Was, was the big note that came out of my first draft. So, uh, it was a whole new learning curve, but it was great. It's fantastic. Yeah. And from there you get to continue to write some kid stuff. You write a sitcom. Uh, what's the heart?

[00:16:02] So sitcom, you know, if it's three cameras and measured to time, which I don't know if like Mr. Young was, I think it looks like it was. It was a four camera. Yeah. Um, yeah. And it was a live audience show as well. Wow. Yeah. So what's the hardest? What for you? Is it, what's the hardest? Is it anime? You said kid writing for, for what? Four year olds is the hardest, but of these styles for adults, mystery, sci-fi.

[00:16:29] Uh, it looks like adventure with, with, you know, Hardy boys, probably mystery as well. Sitcom. What's the most difficult to day in and day out, right. Well, comment comedy by far is the hardest thing to write because. You know, you can get away with being a writer. If you're writing drama and just sort of writing like scenes, but. But, you know, people see through it very quickly if your comedies aren't funny, like being funny is so critical.

[00:16:56] And, uh, and, uh, it's, it's something that like, there's, there's a lot of people, there's a lot of writers who write on comedies who, who aren't necessarily, don't necessarily have those skills to be joke writers as well. And, uh, and so, you know, you, you, you quickly identify that, right. How many times have we watched a comedy that like is not funny? Yeah.

[00:17:23] So definitely you have to be on all the time, especially on a lot, a live audience show, because when, when you're shooting a scene and you have a joke and the audience doesn't laugh instantly, that writing staff comes together and goes, we got to change this joke for the next pass. And so you're, you're doing live writing. So the next time you do the take, you give the actor the new joke and then you finally, and you do it until you get that laugh because you know, that's the only way that that show is going to work.

[00:17:53] How much of that comes from when you were in this, uh, brave new weasels, a comedy troupe that Brian and I both know and love very much. Were you a guy that did you, were, did you do like characters and voices? Um, I was, uh, we did, I mean, we, it was the nineties. So we played a lot of women, you know, it was that it was a, it was a troupe with four guys in it. And so, you know, we, we did, we did some impressions, uh, we were not gifted an impression. Okay.

[00:18:23] You know, you could tell where I was going. He's not going to pull one out for you. Man, I hate that. No, I, I don't do, I don't, I'm not, uh, you know, we would get away with it because the costumes helped. But yeah, but like, I just hear like comment people that are comics would be like, you have to love to bomb. Like you don't want to bomb, but you have to, but you have to lean into the fact that that's going to happen. And that's what makes you better. And if you're on stage together with a group of people, like I heard Colbert talk about

[00:18:50] this, you really have to love each other and love to bomb together. Right? Like that's what makes you funny. So when you're doing a sit, I got to, to draw the question back to the sitcom, you're doing the sitcom in front of a live audience. That's got to be a little bit more excruciating because you don't walk off set. These, you got to give these poor actors more lines. And so you're, you're more grinding in real time there. But you do have a, you do have like the nice thing about that system of the, of the multi-camera show is that you have a week.

[00:19:20] And in that week you write the script. It's kind of like how it's that night live is run. Um, and then you do, you, you present that whole play, that whole show on, uh, uh, and do a walkthrough of everything. And the crew is there and the crew is, you know, they're, they're prompted to, if you find it funny laugh. So, you know, we get to hear, we do two full walkthroughs of every scene. Um, and we get to know what's funny, uh, before we even bring it on the floor.

[00:19:49] But then you're going from a, a crew of adults to an audience filled with, you know, uh, 13 year olds to 18 year olds. Um, and you find that what the adults think is funny is not the same as what those kids think is funny. And so you have to just adjust on the fly. That's crazy. And I imagine, I feel like I would rather write a comedy for a crowd than not having the crowd.

[00:20:15] I feel like writing a comedy and not knowing how it's going to respond at home. Like if it's funny at all, I feel like that's scarier to me than it is scary when we were doing like, uh, we would do, we would write, uh, like an hour long show of sketches and we would rent a theater somewhere and we would book it for two nights and we would rehearse, but we never knew if, and like, we never had an audience to test anything on, you know, opening night was where we found out if the show was any good.

[00:20:44] Wow. That's terrifying. But also like, I remember like there was a time, uh, in the mid 2010s where they would, uh, maybe even earlier where they would take the laugh track out of like very famous sitcoms and play them for you. Like, I remember I was never a huge big bang theory fan, but I remember watching like a minute and a half of big bang theory with no lap, with no laugh track. And I was like, Oh my God, what, what is this?

[00:21:10] Uh, so like, do you ever feel like that the, the studio audience is maybe hiding the fact that it's not in its peak? Well, you know, it, it's kind of unfair to do that because the way, the way that a, a, a, a multi-camera sitcom works is there's a lot of scenes that are not shot in front of the studio audience. What happens is you shoot, you shoot like maybe half the show ahead of time, especially the more complicated scenes. And then you present about half of them to the audience.

[00:21:40] Okay. And so what happens, uh, in that scenario is that, uh, is that every actor, when they tell a perceived joke, a joke that they know is a joke, they have to pause and hold for the laugh. So when you're shooting it, it looks silly because you're saying a joke and everyone just is quiet for a beat. Yeah. And then they proceed with the lines. Um, so when you take the laughs out, you don't know if that was the, you don't know

[00:22:07] if that was like a, a scene that was shot without the audience or with the audience and those pauses, they really make it look ridiculous. So it's not a totally fair comparison. I agree. I hear you. Well, who are some writers for television or movies that you really love? Um, some writers for television and movies. Oh my God. That's a, that's a tough one because I don't think you'll have, have heard of a lot of my

[00:22:36] favorites because they do kind of Toronto shows and Canada shows. That's fine. Um, I mean, I'm a big fan of, of the Stargate guys. Uh, I, I think, uh, you know, um, guys like, uh, Brad, uh, uh, Brad, uh, Oh geez. I, I'm getting too old. I'm starting to forget names. You're good. Uh, Brad, right. He's, he's a fantastic writer. He always blew me away with the way he could write science and comedy. Like that's just unheard of to me.

[00:23:05] Um, who else? Um, I'm just trying to think of shows. Uh, Mike sure is, is a sitcom writer. I'm absolutely in love with. I, every time he puts out a show, the good place was phenomenal. Yeah. Phenomenal. Yeah. I mean, I have, I could, I could, I could just list hundreds of people. Um, to sort of spell people out is, is not, is not totally fair. So who else? Uh, I mean, Chuck Lorre shows.

[00:23:35] I'm not, I'm not the biggest fan of the Chuck Lorre shows, but I am a fan of Chuck Lorre's writing. If that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. 100%. Yeah. I mean, it takes it like, you know, I watched, I wouldn't CSI came out in 2000. Like I watched every episode, like my life depended on it. And then by episode 200, you just are like, we kind of, but that doesn't mean the writing's any less, you know what I mean? Like you had, there's, there's something about just the, how prolific some of these folks are that is impressive in its own right. Absolutely.

[00:24:05] And I don't know who the writers are per se, but, uh, I think only murders in the building is like just a peak television right now. Like, um, I think it's the perfect blend of really funny writing, smart mystery, and just gratuitous guest stars. Yeah. That would make sense for you though. Comedy background, Martin short, Steve Martin. And then it's a mystery. That seems like, that seems like that show was made for Ken Cooper. That's perfect. Absolutely.

[00:24:35] I mean, like, uh, three amigos was, uh, was one of the, one of the first movies I saw by myself in the theater. And I think I like saw it like four times in a row when he's saying, uh, trying to get their attention and saying, you two look up here, look up here. Like I remember my stomach just hurting from laughing so hard. Absolutely. Just the best. Absolutely. Um, I do, I do really quickly want to touch on Hudson and Rex before we dive into missile murders.

[00:25:01] Cause it seems like it's your first like baby, like a thing that you are really a part of the developing and it has made its way down to, I think it's on up here in the States. Um, but what was that journey like for you? Where did the idea come from? At what point did you, what was the developing process like pitching it to networks, all that, whatever you want to share. So it is a, it is actually a format show from a German show called Commissaire Rex.

[00:25:30] That is, that had been airing in Europe, um, for years and was quite popular. Interesting. And, uh, the company that was, that had bought the rights to the North American, uh, uh, version had been trying to develop it for about 10 years. And they were, they just couldn't, they just couldn't sort of get it over the line of, of what it should be. And that script landed in my lap and my agent called and said, listen, you know, and I wasn't

[00:25:59] really looking for a show at that time. Um, um, because I was, uh, uh, working on some stuff of my, my own and, uh, and that, you know, it did become my own, but at that time it was like, they were looking at a show runner to come in and maybe like work on this script that they already have. And I just said, listen, like this show, this, this script is so dark. It's like, it was like, you know, they're trying to make true detective, but the concept is a cop who has a dog for a partner.

[00:26:29] And I said, you know, like this, this, this is like, this has to be funny. This has to be light and funny and blue sky and, and like, you know, lean into the comedy of the, of the premise. And, uh, and I said a lot of, uh, other things too, that were not very nice. And then my, and then my agent called me and said, Oh, I sent your email to the, um, to the, the executive producer of the show. Oh boy. And I was like, Oh, terrific.

[00:26:58] That's great. Um, but then they called me and said, everything you said is absolutely right. And we want you to redevelop it as, as, uh, as a comedy, um, comedy mystery. Wow. Uh, that's crazy. Yeah. And so I wrote like, you know, I wrote a new pilot. I wrote, I created some new characters. Um, we, we, uh, we leaned into, we leaned into all that and slowly, like that started to come out of it.

[00:27:25] Like, uh, they, you know, because I probably made it a little too silly, which is, you know, my, what I tend to do sometimes. Um, so we pulled back and we found a good middle ground and, uh, I wrote, you know, most of the episodes for, uh, for that first season. And, uh, you know, I was the showrunner on that, uh, for the, for two seasons. And then, uh, and then, uh, I headed off to do my thing. It was funny because it was supposed to be eight episodes.

[00:27:56] Wow. And that's what I signed on for. More than that. And, uh, and as we were making it, um, they, they doubled the order. They doubled it from eight episodes to 16 episodes for the first season. And I had promised my wife, because this didn't shoot in Toronto where we live. This was shooting in, uh, uh, St. John's, uh, Newfoundland. Wow. So I promised my wife that I'd only be gone a couple of months. We had, you know, our kids were younger.

[00:28:23] Um, and we, you know, I had gone to Vancouver to do Mr. Young. I had gone to Vancouver to do, um, to do, uh, Stargate. So I, you know, already sort of left my wife in a lurch a little bit with the kids and I didn't want to do that again. And so I, and so we agreed to do it with the eight episodes, but when it flipped to 16, like, ah, man, I was in trouble. I, so this is, you may not know this since you left after season two, but I've never seen

[00:28:53] Hudson and Rex. We have some folks in the double decker group that really love this show. And it looks like I might need to check it out, uh, as a big fan of dogs and mysteries. That's true. You like those things. So it's done eight seasons, uh, which is crazy. And number season nine's coming out this year. Uh, seasons one to seven highly rated like user ratings through the roof. Excellent. Like you don't get in season seven, 8.2s and 8.7s on IMDb unless you've got a really loyal

[00:29:22] fan base. Yeah. In season eight, the user reviews fall off the map, Ken, like off, like through the floor without maybe spoiling the entire show for me. Do you know, like even it's just, yes. Do you know why that it was there something controversial that happened in season eight of this show? Uh, yeah, yeah. The, the, well, uh, it was a lot of things. First of all, uh, the original dog passed away. Oh no.

[00:29:49] Um, and, uh, and they replaced it with another dog and, and the other dog's great. So, you know, and I think audience can, can forgive that. Like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Especially purebred dogs. What it looks like you got here. So, yeah. Yeah. And then the, the lead of the show, um, uh, actually had a health crisis. He had, uh, some, had a cancer diagnosis. Oh my gosh.

[00:30:12] And he had to step away and they replaced him with a, a, a new Hudson, um, which was supposed to be temporary. Oh my gosh. And then they let him know that it wasn't going to be temporary. Um, oh, let the old Hudson know it wasn't. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ooh. Oh my God. Yeah. And then the audience just rebelled because, you know, uh, uh, John Reardon is such a, uh, you know, a big part of that show.

[00:30:40] It has, this all has a happy ending because, um, it's just been announced that John Reardon is coming back for season nine. Yeah. It was just, you know, it was a, it was an unfortunate set of circumstances. It, it, it really, uh, you know, it really angered the fan base. Um, obviously, uh, Johnny wasn't too thrilled about it either. I mean, new dog, new lead. They just basically, that is the type of thing that you can't do the show.

[00:31:08] So like, were you in, how much were you involved? At that point, I was only, I only was involved through season six and that was just as a consultant and I wrote one or two episodes each season. So you're hearing this all go down. You're hearing this all go down and you're like, oh boy, like, like you had to know no, no, no dog. No, John Reardon. That's going to go really poorly. Um, man, that's crazy. I mean, I haven't seen, they got a great, they got a, they got a terrific actor who was

[00:31:37] supposed to be the, uh, the, um, uh, part-time replacement, uh, uh, Luke, um, gosh, what's his name? I think he's even maybe done some Hallmark stuff. Um, I can't tell. Luke Roberts. Luke Roberts. Yeah. Yeah. He's a good actor. He's a, he's a good guy, but it was just the circumstances of, of how sort of that transition happened and how it happened all at once with both Johnny and the dog sort

[00:32:05] of, uh, um, uh, diesel was his name. Uh, they both, you know, having that, having those two suddenly replaced by, you know, a new dog and a new, and a new, uh, Hudson, they even named him Hudson so they could keep the title even though it was no relation. Um, but, but, you know, like I said, happy, happy ending Johnny Reardon's back. And they're also keeping Luke on as, uh, as, uh, uh, as a, uh, supporting cast.

[00:32:33] So, I mean, if you look at the feature reviews from users from this first episode of season eight, not since Elizabeth chose Lucas, have I seen this type of like people, it is very personal to them. Well, the thing that you've created something, Ken, you built something that people put in their homes because so clearly like they seem very personally hurt by this in a very, very emotional way. Yeah.

[00:33:00] And I mean, part of that is it was a, there was a targeted campaign to, to sort of put that message out there. Yeah. Um, so it's not all sort of genuine to just viewers, but, um, yeah, I, yeah, it was a much different show. The show changed. I mean, the show changed a lot from when I was on it too, because what I was doing was I, you know, I said, I want to do murder mysteries. Yeah. I want to have like, I, I don't want to know who did it because the original show was, uh,

[00:33:30] it was a show where you follow the bad guy half the time and the cop, the other half of the time, you know, who did it right away. And you're just waiting for the time when the dog gets to do is take down tackle, you know? Um, but I said, no, I want to do murder mysteries. I wanted, that's kind of my interest. Um, and once I had left, they, they moved away from that and made it more of a standard procedural. So, um, uh, already I was sort of like, you know, moving away from, from being involved,

[00:34:00] uh, to, to move on to other mysteries, which is my preference. Yeah. No, I'm surprised that people had a hard time with that because people love change. They love, especially when it comes to dogs and lead characters, they do so well when you're like, Oh, it doesn't matter. It's just a dog. Um, let me ask you this before we start mistletoe. Although this is a pretty good segue, unless you had something else. Segway. Um, I, from the time we started this show, whenever I would watch a mystery, I would always say

[00:34:30] like, I want to see Hallmark branch into not necessarily darker territory, but territory where everything isn't always wrapped up. Right. So like, I think mistletoe murders kind of skirts the edge of that in a Hallmark way. But do you think there's a world where Hallmark would open up to the idea of having like a serial killer, right? That you didn't, that they didn't catch, right?

[00:34:54] Like not true detective in tone by any stretch, but this idea of like, you know, Zodiac still one of the most haunting movies I've ever seen for a very specific reason. And I'm not saying that Hallmark is trying to make Zodiac, but is there something, do you think that that's a possibility on Hallmark ever or just flatly? No. I mean, I, it's not something I would pitch. I, you know, I, I would never say never because honestly I wouldn't have thought they would make our show either. Yeah.

[00:35:24] And that kind of surprised me. So I will, I won't say, I won't say never, but that seems like a much harder sell because, you know, it, it, I think a lot of the Hallmark audience is, that's not what they're looking for from, from network. So I think it would be a big swing whether it was successful or not. I'm not sure, but I do think there was a couple of big swings taken in the era where

[00:35:53] we sort of came out the gate and not all those swings were, you know, were, were hits. So, you know, I'm not sure. I don't, I would, I would guess no, because just some of the stuff that we pitched for our show has, has been politely declined. So I would, I would probably guess no on that one. Fair, more than fair. I want to, I want to hear about how this ended up on Hallmark because it's interesting.

[00:36:22] It starts as this audible original, this like audio drama type thing. And that seems like a thing that we would do where we can't get the idea on TV. So we put it into a book. That's right. Not saying that whatever happened to us. We didn't, I'm not saying we did that. I'm saying that sounds like something we would do. Right. But you are an established TV writer. You've had shows developed. So how did Mistletoe Murder start as a audio drama?

[00:36:50] How did it end up on Hallmark? What was that journey? Well, first of all, I'll say that I have a production company with my wife, Michelle Melanson. And, and obviously we're, we're, we're partners on that. And so the, the genesis of, I basically have to sort of give Michelle the credit on this because I created Mistletoe Murders as a potential TV show.

[00:37:18] It started life as a TV show and I had some interest from some parties and Michelle had created a podcast for Spotify when they had an original Spotify department and it was a preschool show and it did really well, but Spotify closed that department. It was called Garden Keeper Gus and it's just a delightful, like little audio chill down for kids. Okay.

[00:37:43] Um, and it was doing really well, but, uh, Spotify just decided not to pursue that anymore. So we went to Audible to, uh, see if that was something they were interested in. And they said, uh, they weren't ready to do youth in preschool yet, but that they were looking for, um, mysteries and thrillers, that kind of thing. And Michelle said, well, my husband's Ken Coopers. He's got it, you know, uh, and I had pitched her Mistletoe Murders at some point.

[00:38:12] And she said, well, he's got this project, Mistletoe Murders. And she basically pitched my show to Audible and they basically bought it on the call. Oh my gosh. Wow. Man. And then I had to have the conversation with my wife where she told me, by the way, you know, that show where you knew it was going to be a big successful TV show. Well, now it's going to be, uh, and now it's going to be on Audible as an audio player. Fascinating. Man. And I was like, I don't know how to do that. I don't know how to write Audible.

[00:38:41] Like, how do you take away visuals and still tell a story like that? I was just baffled. Um, so, uh, I, I wasn't sure how to proceed, whether I needed to find somebody else to develop it. I was, I know it was like, and also they had bought it in like June and it needed to be, uh, done in by August. So I had no scripts. I had nothing. So we, uh, we just rolled up our sleeves and got to work.

[00:39:11] And you know, what saved me was giving her that the monologue, the inner voice, you know, hearkening back to sort of like that noir time. Yep. And we started calling it a Christmas noir. And, uh, and that's, you know, that was the only way I could make sense to tell the story was, was to tell it from her perspective in her head, which is something they weren't doing with their other Audible book, uh, originals. So fascinating. Yeah. And that makes the narrate, I mean, the narration from Sarah drew so good.

[00:39:39] And I think that, I mean, that makes it really sing. And I, that makes sense how it got there. Did you envision this on Hallmark or did you envision this on like HBO? No, I, I didn't envision either. Like I, you know, I envision everything because I'm a Canadian guy. I envision selling things to Canadian networks because, you know, so I envisioned it on,

[00:40:04] um, you know, CBC or, or, or, or global or one of our other, uh, sort of, uh, networks here. But, um, because those are the shows, uh, crave cause those are, those are the people I know. So I can go talk to the executives there and I can usually get a deal pretty easily. Um, whether it ever makes it to air, that's another thing, but getting deals isn't, isn't too hard when you're, when you know the, uh, the various players. So let me ask you this, cause you are, you listened to us and you listened to me go, these are,

[00:40:33] this is clearly a movie they've put into two episodes and you clearly wrote it as episodes not to be movies. Right. So like I, I, my perspective on it and, and the person that created it very, very different. Um, do you, I, once again, you wrote it, I didn't. So clearly you were right. And I was wrong on that, but also do you see how I got there? Like at watching? Absolutely. No question. I like, I, I, you know, I think you're absolutely right.

[00:40:59] Um, the Genesis is actually that like, you know, I was writing hour long mysteries and they wanted the podcast or the, or the audible original to be 30 minutes roughly. And so, um, that was too short. 30 minutes is just way too short to tell a, to tell a mystery. So I said, I can only do hours. So let's break them up into two. And then, uh, when we eventually sold to Hallmark, um, I had the same problem.

[00:41:29] I said, you know, we only have an hour, but we want to do romance. We want to do flashbacks. We want to do all this other stuff. I just don't think I can tell a satisfying story in that little amount of time. Cause it was sort of envisioned as a streamer hour beyond that. Yeah. Um, which is, you know, you can be as long as 65 minutes, but we have to hit a 41 minute mark. So that's just too short for me. Um, I had done it on Hudson and Rex, of course, but we didn't have to do B stories.

[00:41:57] We didn't have to do, you know, just like the makeout scenes in the last season is like an act. And that's why, listen, if you don't have Peter Mooney and Sarah drew making out in that freezer at the end of that cooler way, the walk-in or whatever, like you're, you're, I mean, that's, that's pure gold there, man. Yeah. Yeah. And so, and, and I'll tell you, like you asked me whether I envisioned this as Hallmark and the funny thing is, and I probably shouldn't even tell you this, but I will, um, is that

[00:42:26] I sort of approach this as the anti-Hallmark property in that her disguise, uh, Emily being in this town, she was presenting herself as Hallmark on the outside, but on the inside, she was a much darker character. She was like this noir character. So we could see her being bubbly and friendly and lovely to the people in this town, but inside her head, she was sort of more sardonic and more cutting and more, you know, uh, uh,

[00:42:55] suspicious of people. I love, um, so when it was suddenly going to Hallmark, I had a little bit of a mini panic attack because I'm like, well, how do I, because they're going to want the inside voice to be the same as the outside voice. They're not going to want that darker voice, but because we started on Hallmark plus and because they were sort of stepping outside the box a little bit, we were able to sort

[00:43:19] of, um, give her that darker inside voice, um, to a degree, you know, not obviously not, not where we had started, but, um, um, it ended up working really well. I was, I was terrified though, that it was like, we were going to lose a big piece of what made the, the, the show so successful. Yeah. That's interesting. Cause obviously we're not going to get a, uh, serial killer over the course of multiple episodes, but one of the things that Hallmark doesn't really do with their wheels either

[00:43:46] is this overarching storyline that lasts throughout the, the, the wheel itself, which you give us with her past and, uh, perfectly kind of, uh, throwing a little bit here, a little bit there to keep you intrigued, but there's also still the case of the week, which is wonderful. Was that at all, um, uh, uh, a battle with Hallmark? Like, Hey, this is like her, us teasing out her past is important and we're not going to

[00:44:15] give you a conclusion to it really at the end of season one. Like we want to continue this, uh, kind of teasing it out. Was that, uh, tough at all to convince them? Cause it's not really something they've done before with their mystery wheels. Yeah. You know what? It was a battle, but it's not the battle you would expect. And I have to give Hallmark full credit here. Um, uh, because on the podcast, uh, I was really dripping that out. I was really going slow. Um, again, because we didn't have a lot of time.

[00:44:44] So I re and, and the mystery was the most important thing for me was the mystery of the week with the mystery of her past. I saw that stretching out, you know, five, six seasons, which is how it's worked out on podcast. Okay. But when I got to Hallmark, they were like, they said, Oh, so what's going to happen? And I, and I wrote them a page of sort of, here's what I see happening in the neck in, in, in a five-year plan. And they went, put all that in the first season.

[00:45:13] Oh, and, uh, that was, that was the part that they latched onto in a way that, that really surprised me. They're like, I want to know, I want the audience to know like everything that's going on. And so I wasn't prepared for that. Um, so what I had to do, uh, was I had to separate the backstory from the podcast and, and come up with a whole new backstory because I would be moving faster than the podcast.

[00:45:40] Um, for the, so that, that was kind of the genesis of why the two shows moved away from each other, um, was because Hallmark was just really wanting to push, uh, and see her in the past and really push all that stuff. And, and I was very resistant because a, it was going to take pages away from my mystery and B, because I just didn't know what that past was to that extent that could be a satisfying,

[00:46:07] um, glimpse into her past, uh, you know, for two or three scenes per episode, as opposed to like maybe one scene per episode, which was my initial plan. So, um, I had to do a lot of world building, uh, to, to make that work and, you know, Hallmark really pushed that the whole way. Um, so, and I, I think that's actually become maybe my favorite part of the, uh, of the process and of the show.

[00:46:35] So I give, you know, I have to say that they were 100% right about that. Wow. That's fascinating. So can I, I need to ask you this in the, and spoiler alert to anyone that's listening and has not watched mistletoe murders. In fact, hit pause or mute right now for the next, I don't know, a few minutes and also just go watch the program. It's really, really good. So in the first two episodes, you have Steve Lund. I think you, do you kill Steve Lund? I believe. Steve Lund. Yeah. I think we killed him in the first. Yeah. You kill Steve Lund.

[00:47:02] And then in the second season, you got Ben Ayers as a murderer or a, uh, uh, someone that is a prime suspect and these are, you know, I understand maybe not in the grand scheme of Hollywood. They, they aren't necessarily needle movers, but on here on in our little corner of the universe, you know, Ken, this isn't knives out, right? You don't have, you know, you know, in knives out where there's 12 a listers, like when you're writing these, like, do, do you have any say, or do you know that they're going to go

[00:47:31] with some for all intents and purposes, heavy hitters for these five, six on the call sheet names? Do you know that? Or do you have input there? Or when you see it, you go, oh, they're doing that. Yeah. I mean, like, well, you know, when I pitched the show, I said, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm a kid of the eighties. So I'm like, I want this to, I want this to have the vibe of, I want it to be contemporary, of course, but I want it to have the vibe of the old eighties mysteries where, you know,

[00:48:01] old movie stars could show up for like, or like, you know, um, big name actors would just show up for a small parts, you know, like to me, like watching old episodes of Magnum, old episodes of murder. She wrote it's a who's who of like, who's in these episodes. Right. Yeah. And I wanted to, and poker face does that very well. Poker face. Amazing. Oh my gosh. Can't believe it was canceled. Oh my God. Amazing. But we don't, you know, obviously we have a very small budget, uh, in comparison to shows like that.

[00:48:30] So we have to be a little more judicious. Um, I mean, Tom Cavanaugh was, was a personal get for me. Like, oh my gosh. So Steve Lund is funny because I know, I know Steve, he played, um, he played, uh, John, John Reardon's brother on Hudson and Rex. He played, uh, so, um, I was familiar with him. Um, and, and so it was just sort of serendipity that he was also, I didn't know he was a Hallmark guy.

[00:48:57] So they went, oh, he's also, uh, you know, someone that Hallmark really, really likes. And it was sort of seeing the reaction to Steve Lund, um, and, you know, Tom Cavanaugh as well. And those big, those big cameos where, you know, we said, well, maybe, maybe this should be a thing. Maybe we should be looking at, um, Hallmark, uh, um, celebrities or Hallmark stars. Um, because, you know, this is a Hallmark show and we want, you know, that's who the audience

[00:49:26] will get excited by. And so we started intentionally, uh, Ben Ayers was, was, uh, was specifically, uh, and intentionally, uh, built for the, for the Hallmark audience. He's so good. Season three. I can't tell you who, but I think people are going to be really happy with Tyler Hines, Chris Palaha season three. Ken just said it. It's unbelievable. Unbelievable. That's right. We, we leaned into it. Let's just say in season three, right? Juicy.

[00:49:52] We have a couple of, uh, real, real heavy Hallmark hitters, uh, uh, coming to. I think it is Tyler. That was good. That was a good tease. That was a good tease by you. Do you have for the first two seasons, do you have a favorite two episode arc just from a mystery as a mystery writer who loves. I have a favorite. I can tell you, but I want to hear Ken's first. Do you have a favorite, uh, from the first few seasons?

[00:50:15] Um, I would say, um, you know, sadly I got to like rack my brain to remember season one. Um, a long time ago. You know what? I would say, even though I didn't, uh, I didn't write it on paper, um, I would say the Tom Cavanaugh episode, the, uh, the, the treasure hunt was one that I, I put a lot of work into. And, and, uh, I think that one turned out really, really well having Tom there having

[00:50:45] like, you know, we had a, um, just a little inside baseball. Um, we had our last act was like way too long. We were over by 10 minutes on that episode. And the only way to make that work was to take about four scenes and rebuild them as sort of a montage sequence with, uh, with music and our music guys, they, they sort of wrote a action song and they put a Christmas carol sort of buried into it.

[00:51:14] And it was like, I was like, for me that made the episode. I was like that, that sequence is now the, the most troubled sequence in the whole show is now my favorite sequence probably of anything we've done. I think I mentioned that the, the, the music of that in our episode of it. Cause it was so cool. Like this idea of having this like mystery music, like set to a Christmas carol is brilliant. Yeah. And I made them do it again in season two and I'm making them do it again in season three.

[00:51:44] Fantastic. It's just like, you know, I, I think music, um, across the board gets, you know, I don't think there's enough attention to how, uh, a good show becomes great because of the. Yeah, I agree with that. One hundred percent. Um, Dan, anything else? Mistletoe murder. Yeah. So, uh, can we cover all the mysteries here and we cover the Hannah Swenson mysteries and

[00:52:10] I'm not here to talk to you about the Hannah Swenson mysteries, but one of our complaints is that Hannah is a baker and everyone's getting murdered in her small town all the time and she's always there and it's a problem. I understand that Emily Lane it's Emily Lane. Yes. Is that correct? Yes. Yeah. Has a certain set of skills. I also understand that she is in with Peter Mooney. Peter Mooney knows that she has a certain set of skills. So him sharing evidence is not, I don't have a problem with that because she is more, uh,

[00:52:38] she's got more pedigree to do this job than he does. Right. She is really the expert in her field. How do we juggle the number of crimes happening in this small town as we move forward? Specifically around Christmas, it seems things really pick up. Well, you know, you, you might be surprised, uh, to go back and, and, and watch and realize that there's, you know, there's a lot of the murders that, well, not a lot of them, but some of the murders happen out of town and some of them happen in the larger towns.

[00:53:07] Um, uh, for instance, the security guard who was murdered in season two, that was in a completely different town. Um, so we try to like, I try not to have more than, you know, one or two murders in this town, but at the same time, like, you know, you've got to lean into the concept because, um, and you know, murder, murder, she wrote is the same. Uh, it's one of my favorite shows. So I always kind of use it as a comparison, but you know, everyone jokes about how many

[00:53:37] people died in that little town. But the fact is Jessica was a author and she was always on book tours. And a lot of those murders took place in cities and other places where she was on her journeys. And so I'm trying to do the same thing to a certain degree in that, like, um, some of the murders themselves don't actually happen in town. They happen on the outskirts or that happened in the bigger towns in the, in the vicinity.

[00:54:01] Um, but at the same time, none of that bothers me because, you know, uh, it's just the age old conceit that you just have to sort of, uh, uh, get around the fact that, you know, for whatever reason, December is just a particularly violent time in this, uh, you know, it's cold. It's cold. People are angry, you know, you know, um, season three it's happening. It's filming right now. I'm going to put you on the spot.

[00:54:27] I know you can't tell us anything, but one word to describe the season. If you had to, what would it be? Uh, I will say the word is heartbreaking. Ooh. Ooh. That's tough. That is real big. I don't like that at all, man. I love it. Oh boy. I love it. Should we rapid fire? Let's rapid fire. Uh, we're just going to ask you three questions as fast as we can about anything, which is different

[00:54:56] than what we've been doing in a sense. Uh, do I have that? Do I have to answer really quickly too? You can answer as slowly as you want. It's your time. Rapid fire is really a misnomer. Yeah, it really is. It's not the best. Uh, dang, you go ahead. What's your favorite of the three knives out movies? Uh, I would say, uh, I would say the first one, although the third one comes close. The third one's so good. Yeah. I love the third one. Um, what's your, uh, go-to candy when going to the movie theater?

[00:55:25] Oh, popcorn all the way. Popcorn all the way. Does that count as candy? If I have to go candy, I always add, uh, I always add, um, uh, peanut, the little mini peanut butter cups to the popcorn. Oh, good. Dan does a peanut M&M's into the popcorn, which is the move. Same basic idea. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, you're, you're currently in Toronto. Yes. Yes. Best meal in Toronto. Um, there's a, there's a steakhouse there called Barbarians that is, uh, is absolutely

[00:55:54] my favorite place to go. Good to know. Noted. Um, you write a Christmas show. Do you have a favorite childhood Christmas or holiday gift? Um, that, that I received that you received? Yes. I would, I, it would probably be the Atari. I got it in probably 1982 or whenever it came out. Pitfall, Pong, all the hits. Absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:56:22] Can I have to ask a question so that I can ask my question, which is how old are your kids right now? Uh, 23 and 18. Wow. Okay. So what I was going to ask, like for me, my kids are 10 and I'm starting to show them all the movies that I like grew up with and they're really enjoying that. Um, do you have a favorite memory of showing them a mystery or eerily any movie, uh, when they were old enough to finally watch it and enjoy it with you? Yeah. Um, absolutely.

[00:56:48] There was a, there was a day probably about maybe 12 years ago or so. Um, when, uh, all three back to the future movies were playing in a row at the cinema and I took, I took my son and I thought for sure, like by the second movie, he'd be like asking to leave and whatever. I was fine with that. And, and we sat through all three of them and he was just like, he absolutely loved them. And it was just, what a great day. Even three, even three, huh? Even three, which by the way, I absolutely love three. I will say this.

[00:57:18] I've not seen it since I was a kid. As a kid, I defended that movie to the hilt, but like looking back at it, I can't say in good conscience, it's a good movie, but I, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe they even made that movie. Like, yes, correct. If anything, if anything, it felt like the middle chapter. Yeah. I actually really liked two super dark. Dark two, if you like, you know, if you, if you think about the idea that he's going

[00:57:47] back because he found out that doc Brown was shot down in the street. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. No, you're right. Maybe I need to get three, another watch. Yeah. All right. My last one, this might be a tough one, but a Canadian TV show that has not made its way down to the States that I should try to seek out and find my can. It's a good one. That is a good one. I would say, you know what?

[00:58:14] This is, this has made it down to the States a little bit, but not for a long time. There is a show that is uniquely Canadian. I'm trying to get a reboot made. It's a show called the hilarious house of frighten Stein. Okay. And it is a, it is a kid's show that was made in the seventies and it was insanely popular in the days when we only had three channels. Yeah, man. And they made, they made it for one season, but that one season was 130 episodes. Oh my gosh. Holy moly. So one every three days.

[00:58:44] And it's, it's live action. It's Vincent Price was a part of it. He was, he's in every episode. Wow. It's an actor named Billy Van who plays every character other than Vincent Price and a couple of minor characters. And, and it's like a monster show and it's very counterculture and it was very crazy popular. Um, and it's something that is like ingrained into a certain generation of Canadians minds.

[00:59:12] Um, if you can find that show, I'm sure it's all over the internet, uh, worth checking some out. It was kind of like a, it was kind of like a counterculture sketch show that was aimed at kids, but really like 10, 15 years later, cause it was in the seventies. Um, it was really like the, uh, you know, the late night, uh, you know, after the bar crowd that, uh, that really kind of found it on like adult swim. Yes, absolutely. Fantastic. Wow. A lot of fun. Ken, thank you so much for joining us.

[00:59:41] We're very excited for mistletoe murder season three, which is coming out this holiday season date to be announced, I believe. Uh, but good luck with the rest of shooting. We're very excited to check it out. And until next time, maybe the first to wish you a Merry Christmas. Merry Christmas right back at you guys. Deck The Hallmark is a Bramble Jam podcast produced by Brandon Gray. And yeah, that Greenville, South Carolina. For more information on the show, go to deckthehallmark.com. Follow us on the socials at deck the Hallmark. Leave us a rating and review five stars. If you please help others find the show, then head on over to Bramble Jam plus to find the

[01:00:11] best corner of the internet ad free podcasting, live video, watch alongs, movie chats, and so much more. That's Bramble Jam plus.com. Great job, Dan. Thanks, man. You're about to hear some ads that help keep the lights on here in the old studio. Thanks for listening or don't listen. It's really up to you at this point. It's at the end of the show. I mean, you're listening to me. Hi. But here they come.

[01:00:41] I promise they're coming. Yep. Here they are. Happy day. Bye.