Russell Hainline (Hot Frosty)

[00:00:01] Hi, I'm Bran and I love Hallmark movies. I'm Dan and I despise Hallmark movies. I'm Russell and I write Hallmark movies. And this is the Deck The Hallmark Podcast. Deck The Hallmark, it's his podcast. Friends host his podcast. We hope you like this jolly. Well, I gotta be honest with you, Dan. I didn't like that he said that with a question mark. He said it with a question mark. Like, I'm Ron Bergen? Well, it makes me feel like we're done. Maybe he doesn't write that anymore.

[00:00:40] There was a falling out. When you write Hot Frosty, you just jump right into that Sorkin category. Do you know what I mean? Like, after the 12th publication's written about Hot Frosty, you gotta be like, I gotta start thinking about my career here. I mean, Russ Hainline joining us. How's it going, man? It's going well. Thank you guys for having me. It's an honor. It's been a long time coming. Do you want to change that question mark to an exclamation point and just put a, like, you just want to calm us down?

[00:01:08] I was question marking because I wasn't, I was going to try to come up with something really clever in the moment. And I didn't. Do you feel pressure? Instead, he just made brain panic. Do you feel pressure as a writer to be like, I gotta be extra clever and quippy because I write? Sometimes, yeah, absolutely. You know, I like to think that I have some quickness to me, but it's early here.

[00:01:34] You know, I've been working very hard recently and my brain is at like, you know, two thirds capacity right now. So I'm going to, I'm going to come in as hot as I can and we're going to, we're just going to burn through. We're not going to try to run a marathon. We're going to sprint. I like it. That's how we do things around here. That's true. So for better or worse, because you never know. It could like, it could all be done tomorrow. But if it, yeah, it could. It's not going to be done for Russell tomorrow because he's good. We're not.

[00:02:00] In a less existential way, even if it's not like, even if the second half of this interview sucks, if we go real fast, maybe the front half's really good. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. I want to take my time now. Okay. Well, rapid fire's coming and that's fast in the slow. Yeah, you're right. So it's very, very tough. Russell, we're very excited to talk to you just because of how much we've seen your work over the past couple of years. You said it, you've been working a lot. And so I'm excited to dive into all that stuff.

[00:02:27] But first, we've got to go back to the beginning before you were Russell Henline, a screenwriter. You were once just Russell, maybe Russ to your friends. Tell us about where you grew up. What were you like as a kid? What were you into? All that type of stuff. I was loud. Fair. Fair. I definitely, my kindergarten teacher apparently told my mom that I was born with a megaphone inside of me. Oh, wow.

[00:02:55] Yeah, that's a nice thing to say. I don't really take it as a pejorative. I am loud. That's true. Yeah, own it. I like it. You know? Where in Florida? Jacksonville. Okay. I grew up in Titusville, Florida. So just a little bit south. I know where that is. Are you super proud that Yellow Card wrote Ocean Avenue? I just learned this in this decade. Ocean Avenue, one of the best songs ever written. Correct.

[00:03:22] Not about a city or a street in California, but in Jacksonville, Florida. Correct. I know Ocean Avenue well and Yellow Card was there. I have some mutuals with people who knew them because I'm of similar age. Yeah, one of the great pop punk bands to feature violins. Yeah. You know? Yeah. It might be. It might be the only one. The only one. I just think he was a roommate and was just like, they were writing a song and he came in and he goes, hey, is this anything?

[00:03:51] Nah, nah, nah, nah. I think that's what happened. And he was in the band. Every song. Yeah. They said, let's put it in every song. Every single song. Yeah. And we actually, I didn't want to say this, but we got you on the podcast, Russ, just because we're trying to get the Yellow Card. It's right. One degree. I guess it would be two degrees of separation because you know somebody who knows them, but that'd be really great for us if we could, you know, if you could make that introduction. Yeah. That's normally people use me for my Limp Bizkit connection. Yeah. So, you know, it's nice to have Yellow Card in the deck of cards there.

[00:04:21] In our defense, we didn't know Limp Bizkit was an option. We didn't know that was on the table. So this is interesting. Oh, yeah. Fred Durst, take it to the Matthews Bridge. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. So this is the music of my youth for sure. This is, we're not going to talk about Hallmark at all. No, no, no. Good luck out there. Yeah. Jacksonville, Florida based music from the early 2000s. So, yeah, I grew up there. I went to Duke. We were talking a little before the show about that.

[00:04:49] So Duke University, you're skipping right by it, Russ. Duke University, a fledgling academic school that barely keeps its accreditation from year to year. Minor key. Minor key. How did you, what's the deal? Like, was this a, most people that go to Duke, they want to go to Duke. Like it's a bastion of academia. You got to apply to get it. It's a big deal. Or you have like the face for it, you know? You have the face for Duke. There's some people you're like, that guy probably went to Duke. That guy probably went to Duke. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:05:18] Did you, was this from Jacksonville, Florida? Was this just a childhood dream of yours to say, I want to be a Duke Blue Devil? Yeah. I mean, I know you grew up hating Christian Laettner. I grew up loving Christian Laettner. Yeah. My earliest basketball memory. I played basketball all throughout, you know, school. It was my, my sport of choice, my extracurricular of choice. And the first game I was allowed to stay up late to watch was the 1991 championship, Duke, Kansas. Duke, Kansas. I remember it well.

[00:05:48] Yeah. Where Grand Hill had the incredible one-handed alley-oop catch from Bobby Hurley, seared into young Russell's brain. And henceforth, I would go into my backyard and pretend to be Christian Laettner and Bobby Hurley in Grand Hill and Brian Davis. Brian Davis. Absolutely. The whole gang. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so yeah, I really was interested in Duke for a long time. And then I got really into theater when I was in high school and I thought, uh, boy,

[00:06:16] I, what I really think my, my calling might be is to pursue theater and maybe go to New York, you know, do that sort of thing. And I applied to Columbia. I went to on a tour of Columbia and they said next year, we're going to shoot Spider-Man two here. And I was like, I'm definitely going to Columbia. Uh, but I got waitlisted. And then the second I got waitlisted, I realized, Oh, I wanted my entire life to go to Duke and I'm a complete idiot. And now I can't apply early.

[00:06:44] And I don't think I'm going to get in and this completely sucks. Uh, but luckily by the skin of my teeth, I, I somehow got in. I think it was, you know, a mistake on the admissions part, but, uh, but they allowed me in and I sort of thought when I was there, I won't pursue theater. I'll, I'll explore, I'll explore my options. I'll, I'll see. And then I just gravitated back to theater. I don't know that I'm good at anything else. Uh, so that, that helps.

[00:07:11] Um, but yeah, so I went to Duke and I even worked at the university there for a bit afterwards, which was a lot of fun. And then I taught high school outside of DC after that for a few years. So I'm teaching theater there. Were you a Cameron crazy? Yeah, absolutely. How many, how many games did you miss in your four years there? Uh, I definitely missed a number. I did not go to all the games.

[00:07:38] Uh, it's, you know, equally good sometimes, especially doing theater. Uh, you know, if you're in a show, there's only so much you can do. You got rehearsals, you got whatever. Troy Bowman from High School Musical knows all about that. My friends, he knows about that, that tension for sure. Yeah. We're all in this together. That's right. Head in the game. That's right. Yeah. What was it like the first time going into Cameron Indoor? Like, were you just like, this is heaven? It's church. Yeah. There's definitely, uh, there's definitely that vibe there. Um, you feel the history.

[00:08:07] Uh, I feel like, I feel like very few times when you're that young, do you think when you enter a place, like, uh, I feel the history there. I, I respect it. I appreciate it because, you know, normally when you go to museums or, or whatever, as a kid, you're kind of like boring. If I want to go home and watch TV or go to a movie or whatever. Uh, but you know, there was the grand Canyon when I saw that in high school and then Cameron Indoor stadium. The first time I got to go there.

[00:08:34] Um, you know, those are places where you really feel, uh, everything that's happened before in the place. When you walk in, it feels, uh, holy for sure. Yeah. Um, it's very cool. Even people who don't like Duke should try at some point to go because you'll, you'll go there and you'll kind of immediate, I was never a college football guy. And I went to Ohio state for grad school for a spell and I went to their football stadium and I was immediately like, Oh, I get it now. I get it. You know?

[00:09:03] And I think that Cameron Indoor has a similar effect. I'm sure. Yeah. I, Augusta national is like a place I, every time I go, I'm like, this is crazy or like the Penn state football. I'm not a Penn state football guy, but I went to a Penn state game and it was like, this is unbelievable. This is a level that I can't possibly fathom. So I respect, respect to that. You know, I got no problem. I got respect for Duke. Respect. That's right. Um, when it comes to the theater, uh, what I'm assuming you were, you were acting and said theater, what were, what was kind of your sweet spot?

[00:09:33] Were you a comedy guy? Were you dramatic? What were you up to? You know, I'd like, I'm sure at the time I pictured myself as a Renaissance man, you know, a Jack of all trades. Uh, I kept getting cast in like comedy roles. And at the time I was resentful. I wanted to be the serious actor, you know? Um, but I kept doing comedy and you know, it's what I'm good at.

[00:09:59] And I, it's what I enjoyed and it's way more fun than doing the serious stuff. I did some serious stuff. Um, and I'd like to think I acquitted myself decently, but also, you know, it's not as, it's not as satisfying as hearing people laugh when you do something on stage. So, uh, I acted, I directed, um, I, I tried writing a little bit. I wrote when I was in high school, uh, a couple of plays. Uh, and that was sort of my first intro into writing, which is fun. Wow. That's awesome.

[00:10:29] Now, when you, uh, you know, graduate college, uh, you said that you ended up being, uh, teaching in DC before teaching in DC. Did you try to pursue, uh, you know, acting going up to New York, Broadway, whatever. Did you try, like, do you think through, maybe I should get that a shot or was it, I just got to get a real job and do something. I, uh, don't think I took it that seriously.

[00:10:53] Uh, as usual, uh, there was a girl and, uh, you know, that happens from time to time and she was going to DC for grad school and I really wanted to be with her. So I thought, Hey, you know, I'll write, I'll teach during the year. I'll write during the summers, you know, maybe I'll try and do some local shows, whatever. I'll still get to direct high school theater. So it'll scratch that itch. Right. Um, but yeah.

[00:11:21] And the second we got to DC, uh, it was very clear that she wanted to break up and now I was in DC. Uh, you know, DC though, you know, yeah. Where I knew absolutely nobody. And I was teaching in Northern Virginia, very isolated from everything. So that was cool. Um, yeah, but you know, uh, what, what is meant to be will be. Right. And, uh, I had a really good time teaching, learned a lot, uh, about myself and about how

[00:11:51] to interact with people. There's no tougher room in the world than, you know, a room full of high school kids. Right. Um, so got, got pretty good at that. And, uh, at a certain point I realized, Hey, I don't want to do this for the rest of my life. Uh, I want to try writing. I want to at least give it a spin. I can always come back to teaching. Uh, so I did the classic throw everything in the car and drive to LA with, uh, I didn't visit first.

[00:12:18] I didn't, uh, you know, I had no place lined up. I had, you know, a little bit of money saved up because when you're living in Northern Virginia, it's not like you're spending a lot, you know, just throwing it all in the bank. Um, I, my girlfriend at the time, now my wife agreed to come out with me. I have no idea why. Um, but I'm very grateful. Uh, and again, we didn't know anybody out here. Uh, just, uh, gave it a, gave it a go. And we're still in LA. What? 12 years later now. Okay. So I was going to ask what year that was.

[00:12:48] So in 13, you go out to Los Angeles classic, just I'm heading out there with a, a dream and a cardigan and you decide you're going to try to make it as a writer. I see here. Your first credit is 18. So in that five years, what were we like, were you writing, like, do it just working odd jobs? Did you have a, uh, some almost hits like what happened in the first five years that, that

[00:13:14] gave you enough, uh, feedback to keep going, to keep grinding out there? Yeah. Yeah. So it was, I think November, 2012, uh, we came out, um, found a place in Santa Monica. Uh, uh, and I thought, Hey, I'm going to spend the next year. Uh, I've saved up a lot of money. Let's, I'm just going to write some scripts. We're going to see what we can do. And this will surely happen right away. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

[00:13:44] And a year later I'd blown through all my savings and I thought, well, it's time to get a job. Uh, I, I tutored. Um, so I sort of did one-on-one tutoring with, uh, you know, some of the, uh, upper echelon, uh, kids here in Los Angeles County. Okay. Okay. It's really cool kids that way. Some cool families. Um, and they kept the bills paid. Tutoring is a great job for anybody who wants to write or act. I mean, if you're, if you're able to do it, if you have the sort of stomach for the, for

[00:14:13] the difficult, uh, programs, which it was a very small percentage of the whole, uh, it's part-time work and it's great money. So, um, that, that helped a lot and it keeps you in touch, right? It keeps you talking with people. You're not just like hold up around a laptop, uh, losing a grasp on how people speak, you know, you're meeting interesting personalities. So, uh, it was great. And I tutored until maybe after Santa summit. Right. So I tutored for almost a decade. Wow.

[00:14:42] Well, then that Santa summit money. Yeah. Once you get Santa summit, that's pretty much, that's the whole ball game, right? Yeah. Yeah. That's that big, uh, that big Santa summit big bag of cash. That's right. With the dollar sign. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. That year that you were, you know, not, not working, just trying to write, were you, did you have a, an agent at the time where you trying to take, you know, try to get into pitch meetings and pitch to stuff?

[00:15:10] Like, how are you going about that year aside from just writing? It was mostly just writing. I didn't know what I was doing, man. I, I, I was an idiot. Uh, I, I thought that the best path. And I think there is some validity to this. If you're relatively green is I knew that my first script or two or three, we're not going to be my best ones. So I thought I've got to write as much as I can, write as many scripts as I can.

[00:15:39] I'm going to learn along the way. Uh, I maybe had like a meeting with an agent once. Um, you know, which I like barely, I don't know why I thought it was the right time to do it. I maybe had like two or three scripts, none of which I'm sure are very good. Um, but I thought, Hey, uh, I'm in LA. The agent is going to happen right away. Career right away. Next stop Spielberg. Um, right. Right.

[00:16:08] But yeah, it didn't go that way, nor does it go that way for basically anybody. Uh, you know, uh, I think it's, it's important to take a bite of the old, uh, humble pie every now and again, and realize that life does not, uh, revolve around you and, uh, you know, you're not the Truman's show star of this thing. Right. Um, so yeah, it, it took a lot of writing, uh, and I was reluctant to go to parties.

[00:16:34] I was reluctant to do what is very, very important to do because I had a chip on my shoulder about, I didn't want to be one of these phonies. I didn't want to go to a party and be like, I'm a screenwriter when really I hadn't sold anything and I wasn't close to getting representation or anything. And so I go to all these parties. I went to one in 2015, maybe 2014.

[00:16:59] And everybody there was talking about, Oh, uh, you know, I've got something lined up, you know, I've got this thing, uh, is in the works, right? I just had a great meeting and this is definitely going to happen. And you could just smell the desperation. Right. Yeah. So I was like, boy, I don't like this. And so I didn't go to many parties. And then I went to the same guy's birthday party, I think three years later when, uh, again, like 2017 ish, it was before web of lies happened.

[00:17:28] And, uh, everybody there who I dismissed as like being sort of a, an LA phony at the time, they were all working actual paying jobs at this point. And I was like, if I had just like fake it till you make it is real. It's very real. Uh, it puts out a degree of confidence. People want to be around effusive, confident people who are sure that they have a strong voice and a will to work in this industry.

[00:17:55] So, uh, I didn't know that at the time I was just sort of convinced that if I became the best writer ever, which I was never going to be then like, maybe that would be all I would need, but it takes so much more than that. So, you know, that was, that was a wake up call moment for sure. And then I started hustling a little bit more after that.

[00:18:24] Who are, who are some of your favorite like screenwriters? Like, just like TV movies, anybody that we would know or anybody you want to shout out? Yeah. Shout out. Shout out to my boys. My boy. He hadn't made anything good, but I really like him. My guy, TJ, he's an up and comer. That's right. Uh, in terms of like people who are working today, I mean, it's like, it's, you know,

[00:18:48] Wes Anderson and Paul Thomas, the Anderson, lots of Andersons, Cohen's, uh, you know, the, the usual fair, I think as it pertains to the work that I do now, uh, I have really gotten obsessed in the last maybe half decade with your old screwball comedies, you know, your Preston Sturges, your Ernst Lubitsch, your Howard Hawley, your Billy Wilders, uh, anything

[00:19:12] by Ben Hecht, like, uh, just incredible screenwriting of that era that, you know, maybe because of the studio system, it was, it was able to function slightly differently. Maybe because it was a destination for great artists, like, you know, uh, F. Scott Fitzgerald came out and would write screenplays and Hemingway tried it. And like all these great writers, uh, were the ones that were, uh, attempting to cultivate something, uh, during that era.

[00:19:39] So, uh, a lot of the stuff from that time, I'm very, very enamored with. I do want to talk, obviously we'll talk about all the homework movies and hot frosty and what have you as a screenwriter is something that I don't, I literally don't think I could ever do it. It's just not how I function. It's hard for me not to hear. It's hard for me to hear any voice when you're writing. So you've, you've established yourself as someone, and we'll talk about the transition

[00:20:05] from just written by to teleplay that Hallmark might even throw you a script and go, Hey, could you like, what do you think about this? Or can you help some others write this script when you're writing? Do you have a desire to put your specific stamp on the film or is the goal for no one to be able to know it was a Russell Hainline film? Uh, does that make sense? It does. Uh, I, I kind of think, and maybe this is just me.

[00:20:33] Uh, I, I don't think there's a way to avoid it. I don't think there's a way to avoid the stamp when I'm writing any character, like every character in any of these movies is me. It's always like, it, that doesn't mean it's my voice. It means it's different parts of me. I mean, like, I think Santa summit was a really good example of this. Obviously, you know, the anxieties of a teacher, uh, in that age, a public school teacher of

[00:21:00] that age, uh, going through a breakup or, you know, not sure what they're going to do with their life. I mean, these were things I was going through in Northern Virginia, you know? So all three of these, uh, ladies in Santa summit, all were the different parts of me, you know, the nerdy one, the cynical one, the like, let's try and change. Even though the waves keep beating back against us, right? Like those were all me. Uh, so I don't know that there's a way to avoid some degree of stamp.

[00:21:29] I definitely think that I'm fortunate that I've been able to, uh, push, you know, maybe a little in terms of doing some things that are sillier. My taste definitely runs silly. Um, you know, doing some things that maybe other movies don't get to do. I I've been fortunate that they rarely tell me, no, you can't do that. Um, and I, I very, very grateful it's made working on these a lot of fun and, uh, it's

[00:21:56] I've gotten to meet everybody and have a lot of great artistic experience with everybody. But, um, yeah, I think there's no way to avoid it to some extent. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, so 2017, you go to this birthday party and, uh, you kind of, man, I should have been more desperate. Yeah. You turn on the desperate, you turn on the hustle. Uh, 2018, you write web of lies, which one of Dan's favorite movie. Dude, I freaking, I'm a lie. I'm a web head. Yeah. He's a web head.

[00:22:25] I just freaking love web of lies. Yeah. He watches it on a loop. He's a lie guy. Yeah. A lie guy. Dude. Spencer Neville and Shoshanna Bush. Oh my God. You love it. You love it. Um, what, how about shout out to them, man? They're, they're, they're great. Shout out. Great. Sarah Fisher, Chris Sidbury, the whole gang. Really? If you think about it, Terrence Hayes directing. Cool. Come on. Is everybody.

[00:22:49] I, I, I know I'm detecting a bit of a tone there, but like genuinely look, I'll, I'll say this about web of lies. Okay. There's, uh, there's two things that I learned throughout this. First of all, it's, uh, it, everything that is wrong with the movie has nothing to do with the actors or the director or any of them, all, all of whom I have subsequently met and

[00:23:16] heard about the difficulties of shooting something on a micro budget with, you know, a team, uh, above them that was not very helpful in terms of getting a good movie made. Uh, it was a real wake up call in terms of low budget filmmaking genre, low budget filmmaking, and some of the inherent difficulties within. And in particular for this one, it was as low budget as it gets. Uh, it was really, really down there.

[00:23:44] So a lot of the things in the script that I really liked, I mean, I kind of thought it was going to be a decent, you know, thriller. Uh, and a lot of those things just got cut or changed. I think I've told this story before places, but I got a note at one point where, you know, this is a classic movie in which, uh, stop me if you've heard this one before, but you know, there's a social media influencer to my credit. I do think that this was one of the early movies about social media or all of them were about

[00:24:14] this. Uh, and her next door neighbor is a hunky guy who doesn't have social media and doesn't know who she is and she finds that refreshing, but she's also getting stalked by a stranger online. I don't think you need to be, uh, you know, Nosfer, uh, not Nosferatu, Nostradamus. Oh my God. Wow. Either one. You don't have to be Nosferatu. You don't have to be Nosferatu to figure this out. I think the neighbor is the stalker. Right? Um.

[00:24:43] Man, that's coming back. He's very intuitive. He is. He's intuitive. Yeah. He's sharp. That's right. That's true. Um, yeah, they said at one point, well, why don't we make a good version of the neighbor too? You know, like let's do an evil twin situation where there's a good guy next door and a bad guy next door and they're evil twins. And she doesn't know that they're twins. And I was like, man, that's such a different movie. This is a big, big change from on high.

[00:25:12] And I talked to a friend of mine who's a very good writer, uh, Shalisha Francis. And I was like, what should I do? And she was like, are they going to make it? And I was like, yeah. And she's like, you know, this will be your first credit. Yeah. You've got to get on the board. You've got to get people to show, to see that you can make it all the way through on one of these projects. So, you know, do your best, like make the best evil twin movie that you can. And so I wrote the best evil twin draft that I possibly could.

[00:25:40] I honestly thought it was kind of good and interesting. And three weeks later, I got the note, evil twins are out. Nobody's doing evil twins. Oh my gosh. Let's do it. But I think this is a great indicator to people who don't know the difficulties sometimes inherent with making. Now, I haven't had anything close to this experience with Hallmark. This was very much a web of lies situation. But like, it can be really, really hard and really disheartening.

[00:26:10] And you're not making much money. I was fired. The last third of the movie was, you know, rewritten pretty drastically. But you got a credit. It got made and my name was on it. And that did help me get, you know, a meeting or two later that helped, you know, get the snowball rolling down the hill. No pun intended with Christmas. That's awesome. And I want to hear how we got to In Merry Measure. I do want to be very clear. Terrence Hayes. I've never seen the movie. Terrence Hayes. I figured.

[00:26:39] Did camera work on Challengers, The Holdovers, Knives Out, and Manchester by the Sea. Four of the most well-respected movies in the last decade. I was not here to make fun of Terrence Hayes or anyone. I was just reading the cast off of IMDb like I knew. I want to be very clear there. We were just above board. That's fair. I just wanted to go to Batman. No. I didn't know any of them when the movie got made because obviously I got fired, so I didn't get to go to set.

[00:27:09] And then I met all of them later and they would be like, yeah, craft services was like white bread and a slice of bologna. Like, you know what I mean? Like, it's the sort of thing where they were like, yeah, we had to make a movie in not enough days with no money. And speaking of not enough days and no money, Hallmark called next. That's that by comparison, they probably had like a well-oiled machine for you to work with. Right. They did.

[00:27:39] And man, it's it was such a night and day experience right away. I mean, right away, most of the stuff that I really wanted to get into movies, you know, just actually started to happen. And, you know, all of the people who were doing the movie were really excited to do them. And everybody I think that there's this unfair characterization sometimes from people who

[00:28:03] don't know that, you know, Hallmark movies are like, you know, paycheck gigs for people. And maybe that's true of some people. Granted, like there's a wide range of people out there. But like the stars of the movies and the directors and the people who I've worked with who are at the network and whatever, they care so much and they want them to be the best versions of these things that they possibly can be. And I have really gravitated towards that and have continued to work with them because

[00:28:33] it's it's just an infectious environment to be around. Yeah. Now, there was a four year gap between Web of Lies and In Merry Measure. You mentioned getting fired at the end of Web of Lies and there's kind of like this time gap. What was like were you at any point after that movie where you second guessing yourself or do I have another gig in me?

[00:29:00] Is this ever actually going to turn into a thing or were you just like, you know what? I got this this new thing, this new idea in Merry Measure or whatever. And I'm just going to go all in on this and hopefully it works out. I second guess myself every day. I think that it's only human for a writer on a bad writing day to be like, I'm in the wrong field. Maybe I should go do something less emotionally draining.

[00:29:24] No, I just assumed once I got my first credit that once again, the doors would all open and next stop Spielberg. And this was, you know, the first the first chapter or whatever. And then everybody at that company that I had worked with, I think they all moved to different companies like everybody. Like, shockingly, there's high turnover when movies are being made that way. So I had nowhere to go. I had no representation. I had nothing.

[00:29:53] And, you know, towards the end of 2019. Now, I don't know if you guys are history, but not a great time in American history. And, you know, certainly approaching an even worse time, you know, very shortly at the beginning of 2020. So my anxiety was absolutely at an all time high. And I was trying to write these horror things, these thrillers. And I was getting tired of finding creative ways of murdering people.

[00:30:22] I found it. I found it, again, draining. I found it disheartening. You create these characters that you put yourself into that you really like, and then you kill them and then bad things happen to them. And, you know, horror movies often are cynical and they often like, and I was just, I was so tired of it. And I was, my mental health had never been worse. And interestingly enough, Nosferatu also tired of it. Yeah, Nosferatu as well. People don't know that about him, but he's also tired of the grind. And he just wants to have fun too.

[00:30:52] So he predicted COVID. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, correct. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I wrote a family Christmas movie just out of, for fun, about like a reindeer and a family and whatever. And it hasn't been made, but, you know, it did feel really good to write. And I met with a friend of mine.

[00:31:16] This is why my number one advice, piece of advice to aspiring screenwriters or actors or anything is you have to be friends with everybody. Like you have to go out there and make friends with everybody because best case scenario, you don't know who might help your career. And worst case scenario, they can't help your career. But guess what? You've got more friends now. And now your life is going to be better and richer and you're going to be able to commiserate, right?

[00:31:40] So she told me she knew a guy who produced Hallmark Christmas movies, if I was ever interested. I told her I've actually got this thing that I've been working on. I sent it over to this producer, the great Jack Grossbart, who's done a number of Christmas movies for Hallmark. And he thought the reindeer one was good, but, you know, maybe not a Hallmark thing. It was a little more family. Obviously, reindeer are very expensive and what have you.

[00:32:08] So then the second thing that I wrote and sent to him was In Merry Measure. And that one obviously did get made and sort of got my foot in the door in a very real way there. So you write In Merry Measure. It's yours from beginning to end. It stars Patti Murin, who is not, who has been like three on the call sheet in these movies and was on Broadway, obviously, in Frozen. But this is her first lead, I believe, in Hallmark, and I could be wrong on that.

[00:32:34] But it also, the thing that strikes me, you know, since 2020, we've had a lot of firsts on Hallmark. They've kind of stepped into the 21st century in 2020. They took them 20 years and now they're here. And I think the quality is great, like so much better in the last five years for Hallmark. I think what you were saying about Paycheck Gig, you could have maybe made that argument 15 years ago and I don't think you can make it now at all. I think with bringing in talent like you, a lot of new actors, a lot of folks that really care a lot, it has made a world of difference.

[00:33:03] But the movie stuck out in 2022 for being very quick and quippy. That was like my memory. Like, I think, I mean, I think the Santa summits where you really hit your stride. But for a first Hallmark movie, the quickness of dialogue was almost, I mean, it was shocking to see. Did people, did you ever get that note from Hallmark? Like, hey, this is way quicker than we normally. And Patti Murin's perfect.

[00:33:31] I guess my question is like an all-encompassing, I know you didn't cast the film, but you got two leads who thrive with Brendan Penny and Patti Murin, who thrive with a rat-a-tat style anyway, that they don't really get on Hallmark probably as much as they would like. And then you have this script that is, at least by comparison to Hallmark, I'm not saying it's Sorkin and the West Wing Walkin talks, but it is very like back and forth. Did you get that note? Was that in the back of your mind? Or did you just think this is the script?

[00:34:00] Did you have any idea that that was new for Hallmark? I had some idea because Jack had been of sort of the old guard, right? He had made movies of the previous regime where, you know, one of the notes that you would get is like too many jokes. Yeah, that's right. Don't be funny. That's right. Yeah. They used to get that note. And I think this was maybe one of Jack's first movies where we pushed for the jokes the way that Jack often would.

[00:34:28] And we didn't really have to do that much. I think it helped that I had a real advocate at Hallmark who liked the script. And, you know, I don't know that I knew. I don't know that I was cognizant that I didn't know anything, if that makes sense. Right? I – it's a very convoluted way of saying it. But, like, if you don't know what you don't know, then that means you can try some new things.

[00:34:58] You can try some interesting things. I think before I wrote In Merry and Measure, Jack had told me, like, go watch a couple of Hallmark movies to see what these are. And so I watched, like, two of them, three. And I was kind of like, okay, I see. Like, earnest, you know, romance forward. You know, I kind of understood, okay, this is the wheelhouse that I want to play in.

[00:35:22] And then in terms of the speed, I mean, again, I was raised on Mark's Brothers and Mel Brooks and Woody Allen and people like this. And then, obviously, the screwball stuff. So I knew that that's what it was begging to be. I always push for faster. If it were up to me, it would be, like, His Girl Friday level speed. Okay, yeah. You know, I'm never going to get there.

[00:35:45] But, you know, I do think I've been fairly successful in getting some of them to go faster and faster as, you know, time progresses at Hallmark with me in particular. Like, I really push. I turn into those scripts of, like, 105, 110 pages. Let's go. Yeah, I say let's speed through this thing if we possibly can. It's going to work so much better if we do. And, yeah, the cast was great. The cast helped a lot.

[00:36:15] The kids were really funny. Jennifer Robertson, obviously, tremendous actress. And, you know, I got to go to set. That was my first time getting to go to a movie set of a movie that I had written. And that was surreal. That was a real, like, I'm never doing anything else if I can help it moment. For sure. That was great. It was great. I'm curious about, like, writing comedy and just, like, writing jokes into a script and how you kind of – how do you do it?

[00:36:44] Like, there is this, like – Hey, how do you write jokes, Russ? Let me give you the answer. Give me the tutorial here. No, like, you know, when you're a stand-up comedian, you write the jokes. You know your voice. You know how you're going to present it, all of that. But as a screenwriter, a lot of it is open-handed knowing that at the end of the day, actors are going to act and they're going to, you know, do it how they're going to do it. And it might not be how I want – like, how I envisioned it. It could be better.

[00:37:12] The joke could get completely lost. So how do you, like – how do you balance that as a screenwriter who's trying to write, like, funnier stuff while also at the same time knowing that at the end of the day, some of it might get lost in translation? It might be really funny in my head, but when they say it, it might end up being serious. Like, do you, like, struggle with that at all? Sure. Yeah. I think – I tried stand-up when I was living in D.C.

[00:37:40] And stand-up – I will never do stand-up. And we have that clip right now if we could cue that clip. Nope. Oh, God. If you did, help me, Jesus. No. Stand-up is just really, really hard because of exactly what you just said. Every decision is you. Every part of your voice is reflected, and it's a judgment on you, right?

[00:38:06] When you're there, you see all the faces in front of you, and they all go, make me laugh, clown. And if you don't, then you feel the room turn on you in the span of 15 seconds flat, right? Whereas writing plays or writing movies, you're allowed to create different types of personalities, and I think there's inherent humor in that, right? Two different types of people talking to one another. I know I'm exciting you. No, no, sorry.

[00:38:35] No, I had a big lunch. Let me tell you, Russell, we went to Red Robin today for lunch, which is always a mistake. It's always a mistake. And I got a burger that had melted cheese queso on top of it. It looked like biscuits and gravy. It's been an hour and a half, and so that's where I'm at. Yeah. It is an indictment on me. It's sticking your belly like a brick. I get it. Not on you, my friend. You were crushing it. No, I get it. I get it. I just, I had to give you a hard time. No, I appreciate it. He routinely looks bored to tears while we do interviews. It's just something where Brian can't look like he's interested.

[00:39:05] It's impossible for him. I did film criticism for a spell, and I did some interviews, and I was definitely guilty of glancing down at my phone or whatever. I've done it. Yeah. So what was I saying before I looked down and I saw a man yawning? Just move on. Let's just scrap it. Let's scrap it.

[00:39:32] Russ, I'll try to save Brian here while he takes a quick nap. No, no, no. You don't need to. I'm giving him a hard time. No, I love this. This is always great. I usually am the one that gets a hard time, but I can be like, I'm interested. I don't have to act because it's true, you know? I do want to ask you, though, your movies, you know, I guess Christmas Under the Lights

[00:40:00] being a bit of an outlier, but they get, you clearly are pushing the envelope or at least trying to do a little something different. Your movies get ostensibly sillier. I mean, like the Santa Summit, which is my favorite of your movies, I think. I mean, you have not really written a bad one, which is a credit to you because in the Hallmark world where they make 120 movies a year, you could easily find yourself, you know, punching up a bad one, I'm sure. Uh, but the Santa Summit, which is ostensibly very, it's a silly movie with, uh, now my

[00:40:30] major is a DJ. Uh, Erica Tovely is a reindeer dressed guy riding people around town. Like, but it doesn't seem like it necessarily is as quick as in merry measure from the speed of the line delivery, but just as quick from a, a wit perspective. Like you have these two and you have hot frosty, a story that you have told for numerous publications. You don't have to repeat here about like this, this thing you tell at parties, this, this story of like this plot. And then it became this actual movie. Those three out of the gate.

[00:40:58] Like I know where the, the impetus or the catalyst for the idea for hot frosty came from the idea for these other two movies is that that was just swirling around in your brain up there. Yeah. I mean, uh, in merry measure. Also, I remember the, what we were talking about before and I'll get, and I'll get back to it. Thank you. Yeah. You couldn't see the bun. The queso was over the bun. Oh, I've eaten that red Robin before. Well, and then, and then we get, we, you know, cause they have the bottomless fries.

[00:41:28] So we order the food and we say, can you go ahead and bring out an order of fries? He says, we like, I'm, I did it. You got some. All I'm saying is I made a bad choice and it's not you. It's me. No, Hey, uh, this, this show, by the way, is sponsored by red Robin. Red Robin. Yum. Yeah. Right. So, um, in merry measure was very much, I did acapella in college, you know, so nice. Very much from there.

[00:41:57] And again, high school teachers, um, very much a world that I knew. Uh, same for Santa summit. Uh, again, those are people that I know they're all me. Uh, they were all people going through what I went through when I was teaching. Uh, Santa summit was an idea that, uh, the executive who did in merry measure came to me with, uh, she, and luckily I had been pitching something pretty similar.

[00:42:24] Uh, so I didn't even have to, like, I had an idea ready or like ready to go, um, in terms of what it would be, uh, about, you know, this, um, two people dressed as Santa who can't find one another after they, uh, strike up a love connection, you know, in disguise ostensibly. So those, yeah, those were all me and, and hot frosty. Again, there's another school scene in that. I think most of my movies are set either at a school or there's a dance or both, right?

[00:42:52] There's generally, we're going to get, uh, all, uh, or some of those things in all of my movies. Um, did you, so three wiser men and a baby or three wiser men and a boy. I know that Paul and Kim had the story. They wrote the first one, had the story. Was it different writing for actors you already knew were going to be in the movie? So I would assume in the first three, you didn't write for Rachel Lee Cook or for Lacey or for Patty. But in this movie, you know, you're writing for Andrew Tyler and Paul and Kim.

[00:43:22] Um, did that, does that change things? I, it, uh, honestly, it makes it so much easier. It makes it, it makes it great. And like Paul and Kim are so, so good and so smart and they care so much. And, um, they, these things are not easy to do.

[00:43:43] I don't think that people appreciate because, you know, we see in the real world, like that Marvel movies of like gathering, you know, the troops and putting them all in a thing is something that like everyone's like, oh, well, you know, that's easy. But when Marvel does it, it's because they can increase the budget by like five times, you know, like that's not something that Hallmark does when making these movies. You know, uh, Hallmark has a studio to run.

[00:44:11] They run themselves very much like, uh, an old Hollywood studio, right? Where they, uh, have a sort of a brand and you know, when you're going to tune in who you're going to see and what type of movie you're going to see in the same way that back in old Hollywood, you knew you were going to see Edward G. Robinson in a gangster movie or Lauren Bacall, you know, and Humphrey Bogart in something.

[00:44:28] So I think I get why it's that way, but the degree of difficulty of pulling off something like that, making the schedules work, making the money work, making, uh, audience expectation, meeting it, right? There's a lot of pressure there. Uh, and so Paul and Kim, I think have done a great job in creating something that really, uh, resonates with people and, and a family that people at home feel like is their family.

[00:44:56] And when I had the opportunity to come on to three wiser men and a boy, I had seen the first one. I really enjoyed it. I sort of knew that this was a different movie and it was the sort of thing that I really wanted to be a part of. Uh, so I was very flattered. And, uh, when I got a chance to like actually sit down and write, I was like, man, this is just so fun to like write Tyler for Tyler and Paul for Paul, Andrew for Andrew.

[00:45:22] I mean, like what, what a dream as a writer to like know exactly who the people are, what their foibles are, and also to be able to get away with a lot. That's, that is something that these movies do get to afford, you know, as we can sort of push some of the limits a little bit that other movies might not, uh, do as much on Hallmark. So, uh, I, that experience was an absolute joy. Uh, really quickly. I do want to touch on hot frosty cause it was everywhere last holiday season.

[00:45:50] It had the, you know, the Netflix bump, if you will, uh, a little more chatter. Also just an interesting, it's, you know, it's you writing it. It's Lacey Chabert. It's Christmas. It's not home. It's not homework. It feels like Hallmark made the movie and then they realize how often frosty shirtless. And they said, we can't do anything with this. Maybe let's get it to Netflix.

[00:46:12] How did all of that work out for you to get that movie onto Netflix with Lacey still being a part of it while also having three other Hallmark Christmas movies, uh, to your name in the calendar year of 2024. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, cool year. Uh, cool year. Yeah. Cool year. Um, you know, I, uh, I had that script with, uh, the company muse since, I mean, maybe 2022.

[00:46:41] So like the, the length of time that, that, that hot frosty took to get made was not long by Hollywood standards, but long by Christmas movie standards. Uh, we definitely considered taking it to Hallmark. In fact, I, I unearthed an old email to an exec that I really liked at Hallmark where I sent her over hot frosty at the same time that I was pitching Santa summit. I mean, that gives you an idea of like how long the process took to some extent there. Right.

[00:47:11] So, uh, but she correctly and Hallmark correctly assessed that this just wasn't a Hallmark movie. Like it wouldn't have been the best version of itself, um, because there were limits that I wanted to push, uh, within this movie and certainly budgetarily. Uh, I think it wanted, it wanted to be a higher budget.

[00:47:32] Um, you know, this was, this is sort of the calculus that, that comes into play whenever you're doing anything, uh, is, is this a Hallmark movie? Is this a streamer? Is this something else? Uh, and luckily, uh, we were able to get it into the hands of the right person over at Netflix. And, uh, somebody who really went to bat for it at Netflix, uh, fought for it.

[00:47:56] Um, you know, helped get it made, obviously, uh, helped us, you know, wrangle together a dynamite cast, obviously. I mean, the, the people up top for hot frosty on the executive side, the producer side were integral to it becoming, uh, the sort of thing that was really, really enjoyable to make. And again, another one where I got to go to the set and going to a Netflix set versus a Hallmark set is you just, you feel the money. Yeah.

[00:48:25] You feel the money. Yeah. Craig Robinson's like six on the call. You definitely feel the money. Right. Yeah. You know, they've, they had on that movie, uh, obviously there's like crane shots at the beginning of an entire town center, right? Like that's already big. And the snow that they had was not the snow blankets. Right. This was, this was at one point, uh, sort of late into our, our stay in Brockville where they were shooting, you know, the, the exterior stuff at hot frosty.

[00:48:55] There was concern that maybe we wouldn't have enough snow and we weren't going to be able to get snow. Cause it's the same snow that Guillermo del Toro was using for his Frankenstein movie. Holy cow. Yeah. We're using the real fake snow. The real, the real fake snow. And Netflix is just like in the credits, it's, uh, Craig singing a song and they're, you know, wasting snow behind them. It's crazy. It's unbelievable. Let's just let the, let the snow go. We're just going to do it. Let's just go all in. And there's an end credits bit, which, you know, yeah. Yeah.

[00:49:22] Is, is another change, which was a lot of fun, uh, getting to meet Craig and Joe, both of whom, uh, I mean, I'd known Craig's work since like comic view, like way, way back in the day. Uh, and then Joe, I was just a huge, huge fan of like the state and wet, hot. He's so funny on all of those, all that stuff. David Wayne directs. He's so funny. So, so good. And they're both so funny and they brought so much.

[00:49:45] And once I knew once Craig came on and we were looking at who could play shats, I was like, man, Joe LaTrullio would be a dream. Then, uh, again, just an absolute joy. But when you write, when I wrote hot frosty, I had no concept that these people that Lacey would be available. Um, the Dustin, uh, whose work I loved on Schitt's Creek. Um, you know, these were people who the second, the name was mentioned to me that they were going to try and go to these people. I was like, oh, wow. Okay.

[00:50:15] This is, this is a real movie. This is very, very cool. Yeah. And it also got you a lot of juice. I mean, I, I feel like we, every holiday season, we have reporters that call just because we do what we do to ask our opinion on made for TV movies. And in 2024, we, we don't, we're not a big deal. We do a half dozen to a dozen of these interviews where they call and they're blah, blah, blah. I think every one of them asked about hot frosty.

[00:50:41] Every, every single reporter that talked to us, asked us about hot frosty specifically as like, uh, it was like a new level of crazy. Like these movies are, you know, the narrative in 2018, when we started this podcast was they're all the same. The, the, the, uh, big city girl goes to this, which isn't true, but you know, you get there. If you see CCB and let it snow and you're like, this is the one everybody watches. Then yes, all the movies are like that.

[00:51:07] And then the narrative last year was these movies almost the wackier, the better have you heard of hot frosty. So knowing that if I got, if I was asked about it a dozen times, I can't imagine how many times you were asked about it, but did you go then from some, someone who was trying to get your foot in the door? And I know you're always grinding, but have you had to turn down opportunities this year? Yeah. Which is great.

[00:51:31] I mean, uh, it's not that I've had to, but I've, I've gotten to, you know, I can be a little more selective in terms of. Uh, what projects really speak to me? Um, obviously I, I tend to go towards things that are a bit more ambitious, uh, that are a bit sillier that, uh, that push, you know, the limits of what people might think a Hallmark movie can be.

[00:51:56] And I agree that I think that the memes of that Hallmark movies are this are, are so dead and buried. To anybody who's watched any of these movies over the past few years.

[00:52:06] I mean, like the new regime, it's like night and day, honestly, like they still make some of those, but like, I I've told people repeatedly Hallmark has given me, uh, and again, maybe this isn't the experience for all writers, but I feel very fortunate that Hallmark has put a lot of trust in me to the point where as long as there's a lot of Christmas in it and they kiss at the end, I can more or less pitch anything. And they haven't really said no to the stuff that I've sent their way.

[00:52:36] I mean, I was so confident that the puppet in Santa class was not, was going to get kiboshed. Fantastic. It's a fantastic bit. I was confident that the Paul Campbell role was going to get kiboshed. You know, was that for Paul Campbell or was that any actor playing themselves? No, it was, it was for Paul. I knew I wanted one of the lies. I mean, there was, there, there were contingency plans, you know, like, uh, but, but Paul has this great.

[00:53:00] Um, I want to say almost like Steve Martin esque, you know, ability to do something that is very silly where you can tell that he, like, he's not afraid to make himself look stupid. Uh, which is one of the best traits that a comedic actor can have by far in a way. And he's very smart about knowing how to look stupid.

[00:53:26] And when, um, I wrote the script for Santa class with very limited, uh, Paul like parts in it because I wasn't sure we'd get him for more. Like maybe we could get him for a day or two, you know, or whatever. Um, and then I learned that he was very down to come and do a longer stint. And I was like, Oh, well, we're definitely putting more Paul in. I mean, like he was so perfect.

[00:53:50] I mean, and we love Andrew, uh, like Andrew and Tyler friends of the show, but if you're going to pick one of those three guys to do that bit that you can't get better than Paul Campbell. It's perfect. Yeah. It would have, it would have been a different type of actor type, you know, like I would have had to change what the lines were and what have you. But once I knew it was Paul, uh, yeah, it's just, it, it, it just sung. And that's again, another great example of mine.

[00:54:16] Once I knew that it was going to be him, it made writing for the character so much easier and so fun. And, and he's just a really, really fun guy to write for because you can give him anything and he's going to give it 110% and, you know, is, is going to put his heart and soul into it and getting to talk with him. I got to go to the Santa class set as well. There's a trend here.

[00:54:38] I always recommend people, if you have the ability financially or whatever, to go to a set and to meet all these people and to see how much they care, uh, it's, and to see the work and how hard it is and what they're doing, then you absolutely should. And getting to talk about, you know, comedy and, you know, breaking down beats and what works, what doesn't with, you know, Paul, with Kim. I mean, these are just really, really with Ben Ayers.

[00:55:04] I mean, these are really smart, thoughtful people, um, you know, and obviously Lucy, the director, incredible. Um, so yeah, I mean, again, I can't emphasize enough what a blast I'm having working for Hallmark. It's been, it's been really, really fun. And to answer your question from before about comedy, uh, I think that writing comedy does come from character. I really do think that you need to make sure that you've got distinctive enough characters.

[00:55:32] And then once the characters are distinctive, then the comedy is pretty easy. It's, I find that when I'm writing, if I'm pushing the comedy, then my characters aren't like distinctive enough. Then I need to go back to the drawing board. I need to give them more personality wise. I need to give them more to do. And at the end of the day, as somebody who's been an actor, you want the actor to want to play your role too, right? You need, you need some meat on that bone.

[00:55:59] So, uh, that ties into Santa class in that way, for sure. Well, the fun you're having, it shows my evidence or crushing it. And we're excited about this year. I don't think that you can say anything about what you've been working on, but I, I assume. Hot Frosty, Santa Summit, and Santa Class are all getting sequels. I just heard. It's unbelievable. Big year for sequels. I have, everybody who knows me knows that I will pitch a sequel to anything.

[00:56:28] I've pitched sequels to all three of these things. Let's go. There you go. You know, uh, I, I will pitch a sequel to anything and everything as long as it's like, I don't think Christmas under the lights is like a good example. Like that's a complete story. But like, I feel like so many of my movies end where, uh, where the character's journey is just beginning. Yeah. And so that, that opens some doors of possibility that I would love to explore one day.

[00:56:54] We'll, we'll see, knock on wood, uh, that something like that could happen, but no, I, I can't really talk about what I've got in the crock pot. Obviously more than four. Uh, I don't know for 2025. I've got like things that I'm working on that will probably be 2026 also. Um, that would maybe like shoot during the winter, you know, that would be cool. Right. What a change of pace to shoot at Christmas to be around Christmas. What if they looked cold? Yeah. Yeah.

[00:57:23] I think that's one of the things I love most about Santa summit is like, you can, you can tell it's cold. Yeah. I mean, I, it really, it lends a credibility there. I will say that this is such a nothing burger like thing that I am, that I can reveal, I guess, but here we go.

[00:57:38] I'm getting to work right now with some people that I have not worked with before, uh, that I'm very excited about people whose work I really enjoy and people whose work, the, your fans, your listeners enjoy. And I'm also getting to work with some people, uh, that I have worked with before. Fantastic. Again, I love that is an absolute joy and a treat.

[00:58:06] I hope everybody that I've worked with has been so fun. I'd gladly work with any of them again at any time. Um, so yeah, I'm, and then certainly I've got some projects that are fairly ambitious that I will see if they come to fruition. Honestly, I think that the part of the thing that I enjoy the most about being a writer is you get opportunities to do things that, uh, maybe don't, maybe shouldn't work. And you find ways of making them work hopefully.

[00:58:33] And, you know, if they end up getting made into movies and you end up seeing them, then I guess they've worked decently enough, you know, at least well enough to get made. Russell, we're just thankful that you gave us that exclusive, uh, that you are working with new people and other people. That's right. And I think, yeah, man, we're really headline material there. Yeah. Dude, they're going to love, we're going to get so many calls about that. Crazy. But, but in, in, in all, in all honesty, we're so excited. Like we are so excited to see what's next. Uh, it's always a highlight for us.

[00:59:03] Yes. Let's rapid fire. We're each going to get to ask you three questions, uh, about anything. And you have to answer fast unless you don't want to, Dan, you mentioned Spielberg a handful of times in this interview. What's your favorite Spielberg movie? Close Encounters. Yeah, that's a good one. Um, I don't think I quite got it. You didn't. It's okay. It was good enough. It worked. It's been a little bit. Um, uh, you can only eat one candy for the rest of your life. What candy is it?

[00:59:32] Uh, so, so appropriate with Easter season upon us, uh, the sweet tart jelly bean. Oh, that's great. Sweet tart jelly beans are the goated candy. Absolute best candy ever. How about that? Uh, your child becomes the best high school basketball player in the nation and decides to go to North Carolina. When you go in the Dean Dome, are you going in Tar Heel blue, Duke blue or neutral colors? Oh, that's a tough question.

[00:59:59] Uh, I will support my child no matter, uh, whatever they want me to do is, is what I will do. Oh, that's sweet. He didn't say Carolina blue though. He didn't say Carolina blue. I went, so when I was touring colleges, my mom who knew my feelings was like, we're right here. And UNC is a good school. Let's, let's go look at it. And I was like, you know what? That's true. That's the mature and responsible thing to do. We're already here. Let's go look at it.

[01:00:28] And we drove into chapel Hill for about five minutes. And I said, mom, turn the car around. I can't do it. I can't bring myself to do it. I'd, I'd been too trained over the years. I love it. And listen, it is what it is. There's nothing. Your hands are tied. Um, I know you're a college basketball fan. Are you a professional basketball fan? And if so, who do you cheer for? I cheer for whichever NBA team has Duke players on it. Okay. Fair enough. I'll, I'll tune in and watch. Basically, I'm just a fan of basketball, so I'll watch any two teams, but, uh, I especially like the tune in if it's.

[01:00:58] So you like the magic. He got, we got Palo. We got Wendell Carter Jr. Oh my God. Here we go. Come on. Go magic. I grew up growing up in Florida. Uh, I got to go to, uh, the summer league in Orlando when, uh, when Grant Hill was a first, first coming into the league and see him play. And so that was super cool. Um, so yeah, I like, I like Orlando. There you go. I'll take it. Did you have a barbecue spot in Durham when you went to Duke and would you like to shout it out?

[01:01:28] Uh, boy, I don't know whether this is like the quote unquote correct one. I know that people have very strong feelings about this. Uh, I tended to go Q shack. Okay. I was a Q shack guy. Uh, Bullocks, uh, is a great example. I also don't know if these places are still open to Q shack is still open. Yeah. Q shack. I, for some reason, maybe it was the hush puppy. I just Q shack tended to be the place I gravitated towards. Uh, you mentioned close encounters.

[01:01:58] So I will end with this aliens. Yay or nay. And have you ever had any sort of extraterrestrial experience? Uh, aliens. I mean, definitely. Yay. It's a scientific, uh, certainty that aliens, uh, exist. Um, it's just a matter of will we be able to encounter them at any point? Uh, I, I have not had an encounter, but I have written a script or two. Yes. Uh, with aliens in them back in my like horror thriller days.

[01:02:26] And so I did a lot of deep diving into people, like their personal encounter reports. And I, it's pretty cool. It's pretty wild stuff. I mean, like, I, I don't know. I, I, I don't know. Don't pretend to know about like the human brain and how it works well enough, um, to try to discredit or to try to explain. But there are obviously a great number of things, uh, that are very, very hard to explain. And I think that's really cool. That's right.

[01:02:56] Oh, the human brain is a tricky thing. It's a tricky thing. I'll leave it at that. Russ Hainline, you are a champion. You're a gentleman and a scholar. We appreciate your time, sir. We like to shout out a charity of the guest choice each and every week. Last but not least, Russ, tell us about the charity you've picked out for us this week. Yeah, I mean, I've adopted a dog from Wags and Walks here in LA. I think they have locations elsewhere also.

[01:03:21] Uh, but as, uh, a dog lover and as somebody who, uh, in particular loves like rescue pit bulls and rescue dogs in general, uh, I would strongly advocate for that. But also at this time, really there's any number of charities just give at this point when, uh, I think there are a lot of places that are, uh, seeing their money, uh, diminish due to decisions that are made, uh, on high.

[01:03:47] I think now more than ever is a time when charities really, really need you to donate. So any of your personal choices, go for it. I don't really, I don't really know what you meant by all that, but, uh, Russell Hainline, this is so much fun. Thank you so much for joining us and we will have to have you back real soon. Thanks fellas. Absolutely. Will do. Until next time, I'm the first to wish you a Merry Christmas. The Bramble Jam podcast is produced by Aaron Shea. For more information on deck, the homework, you can go to deck, the hallmark.com.

[01:04:17] For more information on the deck, the hallmark family, you can go to bramblejamplus.com. Deck, the hallmark is presented by Philo TV for a free trial of Philo. Go to philo.tv slash DTH. And we're out. Thank you so much, man. You were amazing. Fantastic. Nice. Thanks guys. I appreciate it. I hope it's okay that I razzed you a little bit. No, that was perfect. All day, buddy. It's just part of the family now. We have to come back and do it again, man.

[01:04:45] You're also, your equipment is so much fancier than the equipment for my Duke show. My Duke, I have. What's your Duke show called? Uh, it's called the crazy cast spelled like Cameron crazy. Uh, and it's on the field of 68 college basketball network. Yeah. And so, yeah, we do a show like live shows after Duke games and talk about, you know, what, what happened and, you know, whether we win or whether we lose. That's awesome. I love it. Yeah. Fantastic. It's a good time. I'll just check it out.

[01:05:12] Hopefully next year, knock on wood, uh, media accreditation for the final four. That's what I made. There you go. There's a dream. All right, buddy. It was really nice to meet you. Finally. Yeah, dude. Good to see you. Likewise. Have a good one. All right. Bye-bye. You're about to hear some ads that help keep the lights on here in the old studio. Thanks for listening or don't listen. It's really up to you at this point. It's at the end of the show.

[01:05:41] I mean, you're listening to me. Hi, but here they come. I promise they're coming. Yep. Here they are. Happy day.